Talk:Effects unit

the vibrato/tremolo thing

In musical performance, vibrato signifies rhythmic change of pitch, while tremolo generally means a rhythmic change in volume. For reasons unclear, Leo Fender chose to call his guitar-mounted mechanical vibratos tremolos, and his amplifiers' electronic tremolo units vibratos, and this stuck. It would be helpful to spell this confusion out early (earlier?) in the article, and moreso to NOT continue confusing the two as is done throughout Effects unit.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:21, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I have reviewed use of these terms and find that the article is reasonably self-consistent. When we say, for instance, an amp has built-in vibrato effect, we could be pedantic and add a note that it is really tremolo but it says "vibrato" right on the front of the amp and so that's what musicians call it in that context. If this were a magazine article, we could add a sidebar explaining the terminology. Any other ideas? ~Kvng (talk) 14:58, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Egnater Reference

At "Format"/"Stompboxes"/<stuff about "signal chains"> there's a reference to a GuitarPlayer article by Bruce Egnater. I fixed the broken weblink, but I don't agree with its relevance: While the 'Pedia article seems to try to explain how and why stompboxes are daisy-chained in general, the Egnater article is very specifically about the types of effects loop topologies used in amplifier construction, and how to use them properly. --BjKa (talk) 10:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

explain terms, like "modeling"

Problems abound:

• The term modeling first appears with no explanation, as though most everyone encountering this article will know exactly what's being said.
• A few years back, Guitar modeling would route right back to the head of Guitar synthesizer; now, a deeper search dumps you onto Guitar where it's mentioned briefly — and again as though it's a common term — under Pickups and electronics.
• Since modeling lacks an article, clearly some effort somewhere needs to happen to explain (for instance) the significance of DSP and COSM, at least.
• I'm still unpleased with the sloppy usage of "effect unit" here. Clearly, it's not limited to stand-alone devices, as a lone knob (or even switch!) in an amplifier can apparently be considered "an effect" and thereby "an effect unit." A preamplifier used to boost a piezo pickup isn't really an effect, yet the same circuit can be used to overdrive an amp's preamp stage. (Is an A/B box an effect?) And if an EQ stompbox is "an effect," then certainly any amplifier with Tone controls (especially with, say, a notch-filter knob) is just as much "an effect."

Anyone got a bright idea here?
Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:29, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Hey, cool: I searched properly, and found that Amplifier modeling exists. That does, though, beg the question of why it's not spelled out clearly in Effects unit.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I have linked to Amplifier modeling in the article. ~Kvng (talk) 14:41, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Effect unit vs Audio signal processing

We seem to have some confusion and overlap going on between these articles.

The effect unit article is ostensibly about "electronic devices that alter the sound of a musical instrument or other audio source", but also covers software, ie "audio plug-ins in such common formats as VST, AAX, and AU", and thereby extends itself to covering pretty much any type of audio effect (at least those used mostly in a musical context).

Most of the effect unit article is spent documenting various kinds of audio effect, such as distortion, delay etc - the same subject covered in detail at Audio_signal_processing#Audio_effects.

I think there is some heavy lifting to be done here to delineate the focuses of these articles and possibly do some merging. Popcornfud (talk) 11:46, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

What do you think about creating a new article, Audio effects (currently redirects to Audio effect disambiguation page) and merging Effects_unit#Types and Audio_signal_processing#Audio_effects into it? ~Kvng (talk) 13:13, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I think there's a simpler solution. What do you think of merging Audio signal processing and Effect unit into a single page, Audio effect? This page would cover:

• the various types of effects (delay, chorus etc)
• the various things that create these effects (pedals, rack units, plug-ins etc)

If audio signal processing contains stuff that wouldn't fit into the page I propose above, then we could keep that as a separate page, and add a summary of the new page (with effect pedal details etc) to that one, with a "Main page" link in that section. Popcornfud (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Popcornfud, there would minimally be a problem with the content in the Audio broadcasting, Active noise control and Audio synthesis sections in Audio signal processing so your proposal is not going to be clearly simpler than mine. If we're looking for simple, we should leave articles as they are and just merge Effects unit#Types into Audio signal processing#Audio effects or vise-versa. ~Kvng (talk) 13:49, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Kvng, that makes sense. I propose we merge Audio signal processing#Audio effects into Effects unit, and rename Effects unit to Audio effects (as this is a broader term that covers types of effect - delay, distortion etc - in the abstract and not just units). Popcornfud (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Popcornfud, the merge proposal is fine. Do you intend to do this promptly or should I put up some merge banners to remind us. I think we should get input from others before renaming. ~Kvng (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Kvng, I'm fine to go ahead and do it but if you want to get some other opinions first I'm fine with that too. Popcornfud (talk) 14:10, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Popcornfud, AFAIC, no need to wait on doing the merge. I am suggesting more input before renaming. ~Kvng (talk) 14:17, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

In that case I'll handle the merge at some point in the next day or two. Do what you gotta do about the renaming, happy with however we proceed. Popcornfud (talk) 14:28, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I've done the merge, although all it amounted to was replacing the long uncited list of audio effects at Audio signal processing#Audio effects with a summary and a main-article link to this article. Popcornfud (talk) 09:23, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 18 June 2021

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 01:42, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Effects unit → Audio effect
• Audio effect → Audio effect (disambiguation)

– The scope of this article goes far beyond just effects units (the physical electronic devices). Most of the coverage is about audio effects - filters, distortion, delay, reverb and so on - which can be applied with both physical units and software. This article can cover all that under the umbrella term "audio effect". Popcornfud (talk) 09:28, 18 June 2021 (UTC)—Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:15, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - The lead of Effects unit is focused on the physical electronic devices. Plugins are mentioned in one sentence but there is nothing much in the body from which to grow that. The new name will produce unnecessary WP:ASTONISHMENT. Popcornfud, how do you come by your assessment that, "The scope of this article goes far beyond just effects units"? ~Kvng (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

  Most of the article is spent describing audio effects, not effects units. Popcornfud (talk) 20:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

  Kvng, here is a proposal for an alternative version of the lead to suit a potential rename.

  An audio effect is an effect that alters a musical instrument or other audio source through audio signal processing.

  Common effects include distortion and overdrive, often used with electric guitar in electric blues and rock music; dynamic effects such as volume pedals and compressors, which affect loudness; filters such as wah-wah pedals and graphic equalizers, which modify frequency ranges; modulation effects, such as chorus, flangers and phasers; pitch effects such as pitch shifters; and time effects, such as reverb and delay, which create echoing sounds and emulate the sound of different spaces.

  Effects may be applied through electronic devices, such as effects units or effects pedals, or through software. Most modern units use solid-state electronics or digital signal processors. Some, particularly older units such as Leslie speakers and spring reverbs, use mechanical components or vacuum tubes. Effects are often placed on the floor and controlled with footswitches. They may also be built into guitar amplifiers, instruments (such as the Hammond B-3 organ), tabletop units designed for DJs and record producers, and rackmounts. In software, they are widely used in digital audio workstations as audio plug-ins in such common formats as VST, AAX, and AU.

  Musicians, audio engineers and record producers use effects units during live performances or in the studio, typically with electric guitar, bass guitar, electronic keyboard or electric piano. While effects are most frequently used with electric or electronic instruments, they can be used with any audio source, such as acoustic instruments, drums, and vocals.

  The thing is, leads are supposed to summarise the article. We're not beholden to the lead when we determine the article title and scope - that's putting the cart before the horse. And effects are probably more used as software these days than in physical devices, so our article should reflect that. Popcornfud (talk) 13:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

  Popcornfud, Yes, Effects unit#Types is about Audio signal processing. In terms of character count, this about half of the article, not most. Also to be considered here are the incoming links. Readers following Effects unit links may face some WP:ASTONISHMENT landing at an Audio signal processing article. ~Kvng (talk) 14:14, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

  I am not saying effects unit should go to Audio signal processing. I am saying it should go to audio effect, which can include lots of coverage of effects units, one of the main means of applying audio effects along with software. No one will be astonished by this.

  Interms of character count, this about half of the article, not most.

  You're moving the goalposts. Your question was: how do you come by your assessment that, "The scope of this article goes far beyond just effects units"? The answer to that question is: most (or half?) of the article is about audio effects, not effects units. Popcornfud (talk) 14:18, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

The article, by the way, is garbage, another sprawling mass of uncited original research typical to articles about musical equipment. We shouldn't be precious about it, or be terrified of making changes that don't sit well with its current state. Popcornfud (talk) 14:24, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Popcornfud, Effects unit#Types applies to Effect unit and Audio effect. The other half of the article applies mostly to Effect unit. In sum, we have a whole article relevent to Effect unit and half an article relevant to Audio effect. If it were reversed, I would agree that "The scope of this article goes far beyond just effects units". I don't think I've set or moved goalposts. I've just asked a question and you answered by proposing to rewrite the lead. So I've tried to answer my own question. You're not furthering your cause by calling the article garbage. ~Kvng (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

All of the audio effects described in this article can be achieved by software. The article is about audio effects, not effect units, which are merely one means of creating audio effects, and today not even the primary means. Popcornfud (talk) 22:53, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I've just asked a question and you answered by proposing to rewrite the lead. Am I losing my mind? You asked: "How do you come by your assessment that, "The scope of this article goes far beyond just effects units?" The answer I provided, directly beneath your question, was: Most of the article is spent describing audio effects, not effects units.. I then proposed rewriting the lead because you seemed to be concerned that we could not rename the article because of what the lead says. Is any of this unclear? Popcornfud (talk) 22:57, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Popcornfud, OK but I then disagreed that half the article is the same as most of the article. We are going in circles, frustrating each other. Let's stop. I'll do that now. ~Kvng (talk) 14:01, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Alternate solution to better focus this article

I agree with previous discussions that this article is too broad. I also think that it is far too guitar-centric. I wonder whether a possible solution is to split the guitar and bass effect-specific information out to its own article (Guitar pedal?), which could cover stompboxes and pedalboards, guitar pedals that aren't really effects (i.e. volume pedals, tuners), boutique pedals and FX modding trends. The other advantage of this would be that the effects themselves can be talked about in the context of their application to guitar/bass (which is often pretty unique compared to how effects are utilized in other applications). Once all of that is addressed in its own article, this article may be far more manageable for cleanup and possible re-naming. Just a suggestion - I welcome debate. synthfiend (talk) 20:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree. The article scope is wrong, and it needs major cleanup.

I stand by everything I said in the 2021 discussion. Much of the current article covers audio effects generally, not effects units. Effects units are only one means of creating audio effects (they can also be created through software). The article title is therefore wrong.

We should have a separate article for audio effects (in the general sense) and a separate article for units/pedals/hardware. Popcornfud (talk) 14:22, 7 February 2024 (UTC)