Talk:Constitution of the Athenians

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Untitled[edit]

Shouldn't it be Constitution of Athens?

Add Pseudo_Xenophon Constitution of Athens. Septentrionalis 21:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Split article?[edit]

Perhaps this should be split into two articles, Constitution of the Athenians (The Old Oligarch) and Constitution of the Athenians (Aristotle), with this page to disambiguate? Not that there's enough material now, but later...? → (AllanBz ✎) 03:12, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

When there's enough material, which will be a long time. Old Oligarch would be better though; avoids piped links. Septentrionalis 17:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
When this is done, the links should be divided carefully. Septentrionalis 16:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikisource link[edit]

The wikisource link links to Aristotle's Constitution of the Athenians, not the Old Oligarch's. I spent a good 20 minutes looking for a passage before I figured that out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.103.4.0 (talk) 22:58, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopædia Britannica 1911[edit]

There is now a rather extensive article describing the Constitution of Athens, from the (public domain) 1911 encyclopaedia, on wikisource. If someone (who has a better knowledge of the subject than me and knows how much of the EB1911 article is outdated) could incorporate part of it into the wikipedia article, there would hopefully be enough material to finally split it. If it's any help, I've copied the EB1911 article, (making some of the syntax, idiosyncratic to wikisource, more wikipedia-friendly and splitting some of the paragraphs) to this talk subpage. (I didn't change any of the actual text). Gephyra (talk) 00:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Requested move to the Polity of athenians[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Number 57 12:58, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Constitution of the Athenians → The Polity of Athenians – The translation of the word Πολιτεία is obviously wrong in this article. It is translated as Polity and not as Constitution. Conste33 (talk) 15:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: "Constitution of the Athenians" or "Athenian Constitution" are the normal titles of this work in English. They are used by Oxford Classical Dictionary (alongside the Greek title), by the Loeb translation, and by most editions. Moreover, πολιτεία does not correspond to only one English word. Sometimes it means "polity", but it can also mean the system of government that a state operates under, i.e. a constitution. e.g. Aeschines In Timarchum 4: Ὁμολογοῦνται γὰρ τρεῖς εἶναι πολιτεῖαι παρὰ πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις, τυραννὶς καὶ ὀλιγαρχία καὶ δημοκρατία, "for it is agreed that there are three politeiai for all mankind: autocracy, oligarchy and democracy." Furius (talk) 01:48, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The exact translation of "the system of government a states operates under" is defenitely "Polity". It is not "constitution". Constitution is a written text that cannot be ammended, and it is one of the parts of polity. Polity is the whole thing that describes the system of governent. Have a look for example in this book [1]. Conste33 (talk) 12:28, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In Timarchum 4: Ὁμολογοῦνται γὰρ τρεῖς εἶναι πολιτεῖαι παρὰ πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις, τυραννὶς καὶ ὀλιγαρχία καὶ δημοκρατία, "for it is agreed that there are three Constitutions for all mankind: autocracy, oligarchy and democracy." Does this makes sense to you???? For God's sake, your argument is irrational! Conste33 (talk) 12:32, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, a constitution is not just "a written text that cannot be ammended". It is the set of rules about how a state works. The United States happens to have a constitution which is written, but not all are (e.g. Britain, Israel, New Zealand, many historical states). Aristotle's work attempts to describe the rules by which the Athenian state operated. It is in that sense a constitution. Furius (talk) 12:44, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You do not make sense!!! A "set of rules about how a state works" may be:
1) Ethics and oral rules
2) Written rules that can be amended and everybody calls them LAWS
3) Written rules that cannot be amended easily (or at all) and everybody calls then Constitution.
Πολιτεία "The Polity" is the set of all those three things! Not only the third one!!! Conste33 (talk) 15:13, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I do make sense. The definition of constitution that you are using is idiosyncratic. See, for instance, the Oxford English Dictionary, sv. constitution: "The mode in which a state is constituted or organized; especially, as to the location of the sovereign power, as a monarchical, oligarchical, or democratic constitution." and "The system or body of fundamental principles according to which a nation, state, or body politic is constituted and governed." "Polity" according to the same source means "An organized society; the state as a political entity." or "A particular form of government or political organization." I admit that there is some overlap between these terms, but "constitution" is the better translation in this case fortwo reasons. Firstly, the two works are focussed on the details of how the Athenian state was organised, not simply on the broad type of government which it had.
Secondly and more importantly, because these two works have a standard English translation and that is "Constitution of the Athenians" or "Athenian Constitution." See: [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] Your counter-example is a reprint of a translation produced by Henry Graham Dakyns over a century ago. His alternative title has not caught on in English. Furius (talk) 19:16, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[10] Description of polity - American Heritage® Dictionary

The form of government of a nation, state, church, or organization. An organized society, such as a nation, having a specific form of government: "His alien philosophy found no ...

Polity - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ... Definition of POLITY. 1: political organization . 2: a specific form of political organization . 3: a politically organized unit . 4. a: the form or constitution of a ... (NOTE: "constitution" with little "c" is not the same as "Constitution" with a capital "C." The little one means "make up, structure" instead of the document of the proper noun "Constitution." www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polit... - Cached More results from merriam-webster.com » polity - definition of polity by the Free Online Dictionary ... pol·i·ty (p l-t) n. pl. pol·i·ties. 1. The form of government of a nation, state, church, or organization. 2. An organized society, such as a nation, having a ... www.thefreedictionary.com/polity

Note, this is not the same as "Constitution" which is a document setting up the a type of polity...federal, state, republic, democracy, monarchy, theocracy etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conste33 (talk • contribs) 23:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Constritution (with capital C) is a written document that cannot easily amended. The American Heritage Dictionary is clear on that. Conste33 (talk) 15:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Even if true, and the comments above are not entirely clear on that (dictionary definitions aren't all that counts, usage is just as important), There is an argument per WP:COMMONNAME against the move request.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  15:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Who defines what "common name" is?
[11] Polity+Athenians = 513.000 google results
[12] Constitution+Athenians = 221.000 google results.
So Polity is more common than Constitution, when associated with Athenians. Conste33 (talk) 19:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I don't object to the way you did the search so much, but counting up pure google searches generally isn't that useful. instead use Google books: [13] [14], or Google Scholar: [15] [16], or Google Trends: [17]. All of which support "constitution" as the WP:COMMONNAME, particularly damning is the Google Trends data, that indicates that no one searches for 'polity'  InsertCleverPhraseHere  20:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is not how it works. You must use quotation marks for these terms: "Polity of the Athenians" and "Constitution of the Athenians". The results in that case are 6770 for "Polity of the Athenians" and 150,000 for "Constitution of the Athenians". Dr. K. 19:57, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
CommonName is not an argument for Scholars Additionaly nobody can say for sure what common is about this subject, and google definitely is not a proof of "common".
.
Everybody knows that: A CONSTITUTION IS A WRITTEN TEXT. COMMONNAME applies to the "Constitution" word, and because everybody knows what a Constitution is, thats why the word POLITY must be used!!!! So PER COMMONNAME you must change the title of the article!!!
.
CORRECTNAME is the case here, not COMMONNAME!!!! WHAT IS THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA ABOUT? IS IT ABOUT COMMON OR ABOUT CORRECT?????
If you argue that wikipedia is about common, then why reliable sources are required???? Conste33 (talk) 21:06, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should probably take a deep breath and calm down mate. It is just a move request.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  02:21, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So this is your only argument against the move request! Its a shame you have no arguments, but still oppose. Conste33 (talk) 18:11, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: I see no evidence given that "Πολιτεία" should be correctly translated as "polity" at all. Is there a single translator who has used "polity' rather than "constitution"? To take two obvious examples, both the Loeb and Penguin editions of the work use the name "Athenian Constitution". If Conste33 is going to argue that "Polity of the Athenians" is the only correct translation, they need to show that some reliable sources actually believe this to be true, rather than just using more and more boldface and all caps. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As WP:Naming Criteria puts it "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject". It seems clear that reliable English language sources do refer to The Constitution of the Athenians using the word constitution; the onus is surely now on the move proposer to demonstrate at least that some reliable English sources refer to the text as the Polity of the Athenians, and preferably that a significant number do so. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For God's sake, you see no evidence given that "Πολιτεία" should be correctly translated as "polity"???? (Personal attack removed) Conste34 (talk) 13:11, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead sentence[edit]

Up until just over a week ago, the first sentence of the lead has remained relatively unchanged since June 2014; since March 26th this article page has undergone 17 edits (at the time of writing), mostly concerning this lead sentence.

It currently reads:

"The Constitution of the Athenians (Greek: Ἀθηναίων πολιτεία Athenaion Politeia also translated The Polity of Athenians) is the name given to two texts from Classical antiquity: one probably by Aristotle or a student of his, the second attributed to Xenophon, but not thought to be his work."

Prior to this, it read:

"The Constitution of the Athenians (The Athenian constitution; Greek: Ἀθηναίων πολιτεία Athenaion Politeia) is the name given to two texts from Classical antiquity: one probably by Aristotle or a student of his, the second attributed to Xenophon, but not thought to be his work."

The major difference is in which alternative titles we mention for the work in the lead. WP:OTHERNAMES says that "significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph". As far as I can see, The Polity of the Athenians is not a "significant alternative name". For instance, this google ngrams search shows that "constitution of the athenians" has been more common than "polity of the athenians" consistently since 1936. The Loeb and Penguin translations both title the work "The Athenian Constitution"; the Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought translation calls it the "Constitution of Athens", Kenyon's translation calls it the "Athenian Constitution", the OED(2) refers to the Politeia as Constitutions (but refers to Ath. Pol. as such), and the Oxford Concise Companion to Classical Literature refers to the "collection of the 158 constitutions" of which Ath. Pol. is the only extant. Finally, volume 5 of the Cambridge Ancient History refers to the Athenian Constitution throughout.

It seems clear to me that if we are to follow WP:OTHERNAMES, the lead should follow the form which has been agreed on for the past two years, and that there is no need to add in "also translated The Polity of Athenians".

Anyone want to make a case for a different position?

@Conste33, Conste34, Furius, LeoFrank, Dr.K., and Insertcleverphrasehere: pinging people involved in the move request discussion and the relevant article space edits.

Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your argument. I think the old lead is a little awkward as it stands and would be keen to see it altered to something like "The Constitution of the Athenians or the Athenian Constitution (Greek: Ἀθηναίων πολιτεία Athenaion Politeia) refers to two texts from Classical antiquity: one probably by Aristotle or a student of his, the second attributed to Xenophon, but not thought to be his work." I think I have said what I have to say about "Polity" above. Furius (talk) 23:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, after five days it doesn't seem that anyone has put forward any reason not to revert. I'm going to go ahead and use your suggested text. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 22:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Constitution of the Athenians. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:24, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Constitution_of_the_Athenians&oldid=1217397375"