Talk:Pyramid of Djoser

Untitled

Comments and translation (not mine) moved from main page. Hajor 02:08, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Saying that the step pyramid is "akin to the Sumerian Ziggurat" is highly misleading, since they served entirely different functions, were built in very different ways and of different materials, and had different external structures.

Tranlastion in french:

La pyramide de Djoser a été conçue pour l'enterrement du pharaon Djoser par Vizier Imhotep. Cette première pyramide égyptienne est composée de 6 mastabas (de taille décroissante) construite placé sur une une autre dans ce qui étaient clairement des révisions et des développements du plan original. La pyramide était de 60 m de hauteur. La pyramide d'étape (ou la pyramide de degré) est considérée comme la construction en pierre à grande échelle la plus tôt.

Translated by AI

The pyramid originally stood 62 meters tall and was clad in polished white limestone. -- Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but the phrasing of this makes it sound as though it has changed height and appearance. I'm no expert, but has it? PolarisSLBM 12:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

As with all the Egyptian pyramids (except the very top of the Pyramid of Khafre), the limestone facing has long since either decayed or been nicked. FiggyBee 15:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Ancient vandalism

I have reverted this article back to a version from October 15, 2006, due to someone removing most of the article, and others then replacing it with new content. Hope no-one objects too much. Cheers Markh 09:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Better Photos & Presentation

There are some better photos of the pyramid and the mortuary temple over at Wikimedia Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Pyramid_of_Djoser - perhaps they could be used in this article? --Buyoof (talk) 20:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC) → I replaced a few of the images today. --Buyoof (talk) 21:10, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

In addition to this the old and new images of the entry colonnade should be added side-by-side for a better understanding.Moughera (talk) 11:24, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Not the Oldest Stone Structure

The statement "The step pyramid (or proto-pyramid) is considered to be the earliest large-scale stone construction, although the nearby enclosure known as Gisr el-mudir would seem to predate the complex" is incorrect. See the Wiki article on Newgrange. Newgrange is certainly constructed of stone, is large and predates this structure by at least 500 years based on carbon dating. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.163.81.170 (talk) 18:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

original burial

When I saw the site being excavated in the late 1960s, there was some suggestion by one of the excavation team, that the southern tomb had originally been intended to be the place of Djoser's burial.

Just before the completion of the southern tomb a decision was made (by Imhotep?) that due to the continuing good health and increasing resources of the Pharaoh, the other mastaba would be enlarged and eventually become a step pyramid and the site of Djosers final burial. AT Kunene (talk) 07:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Base area

'The final pyramid was 62m tall and 1221 square meters in area.'

1221 can't be right - what is the correct value?

Presumably it's given in ref 5, i.e.:

Kathryn A. Bard, An Introduction to the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt (Oxford: Blackwell Publishing Ltd, 2008), 128-33

109.145.108.66 (talk) 23:07, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I checked the cited source and I can't find such numbers in my 2007 edition of the book, but that value was obviously wrong. Since we know the length of the sides of the base, anyone can easily calculate the correct value. --WANAX (talk) 22:51, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Good work! Similarly:

The Great Trench

'The trench measures 750 m long and 40 m wide'

Ref 11:

Miroslav Verner, The Pyramids (New York: Grove Press, 1998), 105-139.

40 is clearly wrong; 400 is more credible.

109.145.108.66 (talk) 01:02, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

It does not consist of six mastabas built atop one another

If Verner says that then Verner is wrong.

There were three initial mastaba stages (the second two merely being extensions of the the first, not 'atop' it). After that the pyramid was built by laying concentric courses of limestone blocks, tilted downwards towards the inside. Opinion is divided on whether there were two pyramid stages, the first of four steps then extended to six. (Lehner pp. 84,87)

So since it's such a glaring factual error which can't really be left I'm changing

The pyramid consisted of six mastabas (of decreasing size) built atop one another in what were clearly revisions and developments of the original plan.

to

The pyramid went through several revisions and developments of the original plan.

Carmst (talk) 10:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Carmst, no Verner doesn't say that. Verner is being cited exclusively for the sentence The pyramid originally stood 62.5 metres (205 ft) tall, with a base of 109 m × 121 m (358 ft × 397 ft) and was clad in polished white limestone. I know because I'm the one who added the citation for the dimensions. I'm guessing the "six mastabas" claim is taken from a less stellar source, perhaps the one that was originally there written by an inexpert author. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:02, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Location - Memphis?

Is there a reason this is listed as northwest of Memphis? It seems quite far from Memphis and relatively close to Cairo - why is Memphis the location reference? TheHYPO (talk) 16:06, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Memphis is about 5km from Djoser's pyramid, and was a major administrative centre during the Old Kingdom. Cairo is about 30km away from the same site. Mr rnddude (talk) 00:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Citations need fixing

In particular, it is Miroslav Verner, not Mislov Verner. They should also have been full citations containing at least author, work, publisher and year of publication. User:Thanos5150, as you consider me a dishonest cowardly hack[1] I wouldn't dream of tampering with your edits, but I hope you will fix them. It would be a good idea to make sure that all the references to the same source are amalgamated. You might want to read Help:Referencing for beginners, despite it's title it's still an excellent source for anyone and its videos make life easier. Doug Weller talk 09:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

The supposed 'kbhw ntrw' name

This article has claimed since 2006 that the pyramid's name is 'kbhw ntrw' and it originally provided a translation as 'libation of the deities' which was removed later in 2006 because it was tagged as 'citation needed'. I have not been able to confirm this name against any Egyptological source.
The most obvious problem for me is the transliteration of the two words, they are both wrong. Libation should be ḳbḥw not kbhw and deities/gods should be nṯrw not ntrw. The diacritics are important and any Egyptologist would know not to omit them, but not necessarily any passing editor. If you search "kbhw ntrw" online, you'll broadly find sources repeating Wikipedia's claim. Having accounted for the spelling errors, and run a new search, I found a single Egyptological reference to a similarly written phrase: 'ḳbḥw nṯr-ꜥꜣ'. It comes from Paul Barguet (1953), La Stèle de la Famine, à Sehel, p. 14. The Famine Stela bears Djoser's name and dates itself to regnal year 18, but it's actually from the Ptolemaic Kingdom. Egyptologists are split on whether it's a copy of an older text or a Ptolemaic fabrication. The line is, it seems, above the stela. The relevant part reads ẖnmw-rꜥ nb ḳbḥw nṯr-ꜥꜣ meaning 'Khnum-Re, lord of the Cataract, the Great God'. As no source was ever provided, I have no way of knowing whether the name provided in our article for the past 15 years came from this stela and was mistranslated or whether it came from another source.
In any case, I have removed it. I think it should not be re-instated without either a) a reliable source that predates 15 November 2006 (for WP:CITOGENESIS reasons) or b) a reliable source that postdates that day, but references either i) a source that predates this time or ii) direct evidence for the name (such as an inscription with the name). The editor's other edits appear constructive, so I do not think this was a case of vandalism. But it could be a misinterpretation, which I think likely, as Egyptologists provide names for sites that are known and I can't find a name for Djoser's complex anywhere. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:09, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Update, I just thought to look in a very old book – Gauthier's dictionary of geographical names (1920s) – for this and I did find an entry: qbeḥ (?) nṯrou (notes q/ḳ identify the same hieroglyph ; ou is a French equivalent for w ; (?) indicates uncertain or missing hieroglyph(s)). It's from the Palermo Stone and is the name of an unidentified building from the Old Kingdom – at the time, at least. That has led me to Dieter Arnold (1997) who connects it to Djoser citing two sources in a footnote: Helck and Stadelmann both in Lexikon der Ägyptologie Band VI (pp. 363-364 and 706-709). It appears to be the name of a 'fortress of the gods', I... really don't know. Mr rnddude (talk) 22:49, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Pyramid of Djoser designed with 7 levels & 4 sides using Royal Cubits of 7 Palms x 4 Fingers

The Pyramid of Pharaoh Djoser has 6 tiers & 7 levels including Ground and Top/Roof. It has 4 sides. It was designed by the architect Imhotep using Royal Cubits of 7 palms x 4 fingers. 73.204.28.58 (talk) 17:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)