Talk:Russian Civil War

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Left-wing uprisings against the Bolsheviks was merged into Russian Civil War with this edit on 28 May 2023 after being nominated for deletion. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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Incomplete sentence[edit]

In the "repression" section, in the paragraph starting "On August 30...", the first sentence describes the Kaplan assassination attempt. And then, there is clearly something missing. The next sentence starts mid-sentence and the next sentence after that refers to a term that hasn't been introduced. This is really messy. Can someone please clean this up? Thanks! --95.89.78.72 (talk) 20:21, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 August 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. See snow close by another editor at Talk:Wagner Group rebellion#Requested move 23 August 2023. Station1 (talk) 23:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Civil War → First Russian Civil War – The second civil war already happened. 89.122.39.11 (talk) 13:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. No reliable sources are using this name. Zowayix001 (talk) 16:44, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Killuminator (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose move. There is no second civil war. O.N.R. ^(talk) 21:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose and WP:SNOW close, it isn't happening- same IP made a req to move Wagner Group rebellion to Second Russian Civil War and that request was unanimously shut down - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 22:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Orphaned references in Russian Civil War[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Russian Civil War's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "caven":

From World War I: Hinterhoff 1984, pp. 499–503
From Battle of Baku: (Missen 1984, pp. 2766–2772)

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT ⚡ 05:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The removing of the infobox[edit]

There was zero consideration with the members when the infobox was heavily reduced. I find this unappealing to me as a reader of Wikipedia because it removes the aspect of it being a massive conflict. Nusciii (talk) 14:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result in infobox[edit]

Per MILMOS: As a general rule, this guidance should only be used where it is helpful, and should not be used as grounds for extensive disruptive renovations of existing articles. This is actually in line with Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. The previous version was here for years, therefore is consensual. So I strongly encourage you, @Remsense to present solid arguments how "see aftermath" is more helpful and meaningful for a casual reader who doesn't want to read lengthy texts, otherwise the previous version will be restored. Oloddin (talk) 02:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not how consensus works, and that's not how IAR works. Guidelines themselves summarize existing sitewide consensus that generally isn't overridable by whatever you feel should be the case on an individual article: you actually have to provide a concrete reason why your preferred version is better for the article, which you haven't, and you likely cannot. Infoboxes were not designed to accurately summarize complex, subtle information, that's what prose is for. The previous infobox was one of the most egregious attempts to write the article in the infobox that I've ever seen. "People don't want to read" is not a good reason on an encyclopedia. They have to if they want to know what actually happened, I'm afraid. We shouldn't give them contradictory, malformed bullshit in the place of reading. Remsense诉 02:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You introduced these changes that were challenged, therefore have to provide reasons for it and to establish consensus. replied to: RE: That's not how consensus works, and that's not how IAR works. You actually have to provide a reason why your preferred version is better for the article, which you haven't, and you likely cannot. Oloddin (talk) 02:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reasons are those at MOS:MILHIST, which is a community-level consensus that can't be overridden locally because you feel like it. What's your reason for why this article is so special? Remsense诉 02:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I already cited it. "Only used where helpful". So if you think that it was "too much", you should have initiated a discussion first here. Oloddin (talk) 02:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. You have to say why it's not helpful, me and the guideline (i.e. preexisting community-wide consensus) agree that it's helpful. Remsense诉 02:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, the guidance is not meant to apply mindlessly without consideration in any particular case. And small discussion among several editors is hardly a "community-wide consensus" for a matter that affects so many articles. Oloddin (talk) 03:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you dislike the guideline, then open another RfC about it. Keep in mind that it's not just MILHIST, it's the commonsense application of WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE to military history subjects. (I already know what is plainly stated there about section links, so don't bother. This is an accepted case where it's best not avoided to put a section link.)

Failing that, you have yet to make an actual argument for why it's "mindless", e.g. why this article should be treated differently from every other one, which is what you'll be needing. Remsense诉 03:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Articles are not uniform actually. Oloddin (talk) 03:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let me know when you have that argument. Remsense诉 03:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE says that the purpose of infoboxes is to give key facts. "See aftermath" is not about that.

For now I'll put Bolshevik victory with sources. Oloddin (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right, the point is that if key facts can't be related at a glance, it's better not to try and leave the parameter blank.

Simply "Bolshevik victory" is fine by me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's deemed oversimplistic and therefore too complex to be summed up in the infobox by others. Remsense诉 03:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and this is where a disagreement starts.

Then "see aftermath" can be used in addition to victory, it's also acceptable by the guidelines. Oloddin (talk) 04:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]