Talk:Materialism and Christianity

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Untitled[edit]

Noone has ever called themselves a "Christian materialist". The term is essentially an accusation of insincere faith on the part of some Christian fundamentalists by more liberal Christians. This accusation certainly deserves an article as a concept, but it should be treated neutrally, and not as a matter-of-fact trend.--Pharos 04:46, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think we may have to get rid of this article. It seems exceptionally unclear - for example, what do Christian Materialists believe? Nothing in the article seems to give an answer. Since belief in God is more-or-less fundamental to being a Christian, and the philosophy of materialism states that only matter exists, and specifically excludes the supernatural, the two philosophies seem to be fundamentally contradictory.

See my remarks below--Trovatore —Preceding undated comment added 05:42, 30 June 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What it looks like is the author has confused this philosophy with the common usage of materialism, i.e. a primary focus on posessions. There is certainly a case to be made that some branches of Christianity share this obsession, but I think it's a long way from being a movement. DJ Clayworth 18:42, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As the originator of this article, I've rewritten it to address the valid criticisms above. Kitoba 13:35, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My understanding is that "Christian materialism" is the doctrine that (a) there is no "soul" distinct from the body, (b) a person has no ego in the interval between his physical death and his resurrection, and (c) the resurrection on the Day of Judgment is a physical resurrection of the flesh. AIUI Jehovah's Witnesses believe in something of this sort, as do some other Biblical literalists. Unfortunately I have no handy references, but if I'm right about this, then the article as it stands is incomplete at best, actively misleading at worst --Trovatore 30 June 2005 05:42 (UTC)

That is correct. Such philosophers as Peter van Inwagen promote a synthesis of materialism (all that exists in creation is matter) and Christian doctrine. He is the primary philosopher to promote such a thing and needs to be mentioned by name. It is possible that other Christian theologians believe this, but I am not familiar with their thoughts.

I think "Christian materialist" is not a particularly established term, but as a philosophical materialist myself (which I think is rather established) I have been reading about several writers who align themselves with William Temple (archbishop)'s quote "[Christianity is] the most avowedly materialist of all the great religions." - William Temple, Nature, Man and God (London: Macmillan & co., 1935), p.478. (and he means materialism in the legacy of Democritus, Epicurus, Gassendi, etc.).These include D.R.G Owen ("Body and Soul") and Edmond La B. Cherbonnier. It is possible that a "Christian materialist" could be one who does not include any supernatural beings in his ontology, i.e. God can be a strict subset of the material world. --User:Mathcat

No, that's not my understanding of the concept. I think Christian materialists are materialist as far as human beings are concerned, not so much with respect to God, and perhaps not with respect to angels and demons (I'm not sure on this latter point). --Trovatore 16:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, this would make it different from pantheism or panentheism. It would be 'materialtheism'. This would be radically opposed to any standard theism, but if you read John Shelby Spong, you might get that idea. --Mathcat 21 Aug 2005

Spong explicitly denies theism; I don't think he's what we have in mind here. You could almost call him a "Christian atheist". Christian materialists are at the other end of the spectrum; they are extreme Biblical textualists. --Trovatore 16:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

So do you think there can be no 'theism' (as I called it 'materialtheism', where God is defined as something strictly contained in nature) that does not have a supernatural component? Or maybe there is a better word you have in mind. (It is not pantheism.) I guess since I identify with Spong, and am a materialist, I would be a Christian atheist materialist.--User:Mathcat

I think a great many philosophical positions and combinations of positions are possible. My point is that Spong himself explicitly denies the existence of a "theistic God", his words. What exactly he means by that I'm not completely sure; it's possible that he's a theist by your definition, even if not by his own. --Trovatore 21:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point, if one goes by the definitions in Theism (holds that God is both transcendent and immanent) and Deity. (But in God, see the section on Posthuman God.) I'm looking for another word; I'm not sure what it is though if it isn't 'materialtheism'. --Mathcat 21 Aug 2005

I have updated my terminology in Materialtheism on Beliefnet. (I am mathbot on Beliefnet.) -- Mathcat 29 Aug 2005

Kind Suggestion: rename this page, don't delete it! Rename to "Materialism in Christianity" or "Ontological materialism in the Christian Tradition" or something like that. FatalSubjectivities (talk) 00:34, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mathcat - I've added your archbishop quote. FatalSubjectivities (talk) 05:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

confusion over meaning of "materialism" in article[edit]

The "Historical background" and "Josemaria Escriva and Opus Dei" sections appear to be talking about ontological materialism, whereas the "Evangelical ministry and capitalist marketing" and "Critique of American religious culture" sections seem to be about economic materialism. These are almost unrelated senses; I don't know if the two notions of "Christian materialism" even belong in the same article. If they're both kept, then a clear distinction should be made. --Trovatore 06:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-on observation. FatalSubjectivities (talk) 05:28, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Upon recent review, I've decided to eliminate the "Evangelical ministry..." section for reasons of NPOV and to eliminate self-sourcing. (I am the originator of this article).

Kitoba 19:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All the references to Catholicism need to be expunged. None of these people espoused any sort of philosophical/ontological materialism. It was opposite. These references seem to have been added by someone who was very confused about what Catholicism teaches, or has their own pet theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArtKalb (talk • contribs) 07:37, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Poor order[edit]

I'm no expert on Theology but jumping straight in there with a quote by Ratzinger (I assume you mean the pope) seems like poor form. The sentence structure doesn't make sense and it doesn't actually explain the historical background, while the first sentence of the "Josemaría Escrivá and Opus Dei" section refers to the earliest reference. I suggest attempting to make the part about Ratzinger and his quotes more understandable, specifying that this may only be relevant to Catholics if this is the case and putting it below the 'earliest reference'. I also suggest adding a definition section above history.--Senor Freebie (talk) 23:56, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Christian socialism[edit]

Christian materialism was a term current in late 19th century Anglicanism. Anglo-catholic priests with socialist leanings were sometimes known as Christian materialists because the believe the Christian massage was about reforming this material world rather than preparing for some future spiritual world (heaven)

It is probably a subset of Christian Socialism and should link to Stewart Hedlam and said Archbishop William Temple. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.10.41.11 (talk) 03:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Complete misreading of John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Josemaria Escriva[edit]

This article ventures off into a complete misunderstanding of the quotations from John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Josemaria Escriva. They would all be horrified to be described in any way as advocates of materialism - it was the complete opposite.

John Paul II's Dominum and Vivificantem talked about the problems of materialism.

Ratzinger/Benedict XVI talked in numerous places about the problems of materialism, both economic, ethical, and philosophical.

Josemaria Escriva talks about "materializing the spiritual life." The point being to bring material realities into contact with the spiritual/supernatural life.

There is no large support for "Christian materialism" by the Catholic Church. It is a complete misreading.

This should all be deleted. Possibly one of the much earlier versions of the page is closer to an accurate description.

ArtKalb (talk) 07:34, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken. Hence I shifted them to under "Historical background" so that they seem like merely related to materialism but not squarely located in the materialist 'tradition'. FatalSubjectivities (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]