Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khonnor

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was ambiguous.

There are many conflicting claims in this discussion and little verifiable evidence. On the strict vote count, I find 8 clear "delete" votes, 8 "keep" votes (three had to be discounted as such new accounts that they can not be reliably differentiated from sockpuppet accounts), one that was too ambiguous to call and one explicit "userfy" vote.

I was unable to substantiate most of the claims made by the "keep" voters. Even after reading through the comments and opinions presented, it is not clear to me that this person does in fact meet the WP:MUSIC guidelines.

Further, it is unclear whether the subject of this article participated in edits to the article or not. Someone using the subject's name for a username did create an account just in time to participate in this discussion (and has not been back since). Based on the pattern of edits, I have a suspicion that the account may itself be a sockpuppet. I have so far been unable to confirm or exclude that hypothesis. If the subject did participate in either the editing of the article or this discussion, please note that such participation is strongly discouraged. Wikipedia has two inviolate rules - articles must be verifiable and must be written from a neutral point of view. Both those objectives are exponentially harder when the subject of a biography is participating.

I am going to exercise my discretion to override the strict vote count on this decision. Noting that user:khonnor contains nothing more than a link to this article (and was created after this discussion was started), I am going to move the article to his user space. If/when this article is nominated to Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion, I strongly request that the participants restrict their comments to the facts and evidence necessary to establish whether this person meets the appropriate criteria for inclusion of biographies. Rossami (talk) 01:50, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Khonnor

Non-notable, another aghost-related article Denni☯ 00:37, 2005 May 21 (UTC)

• Delete. No allmusic.com entry, which may not mean much for a fringe/underground artist, but article provides no alternative evidence of nobility. Given the other Aghost created articles, this may simply be a prank. Gamaliel 01:41, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

• Sorry, I should have looked at the history before I assumed it was yet another Aghost creaton. In any case, I'm convinced by the changes to the article. Keep. Gamaliel 18:34, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

• Delete this and the rest of aghost's articles, all seem to be vanity/hoax/nonsense/jokes Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:43, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. If you want to make an article on a significantly-encyclopedic IDM figure, maybe instead create an article about Esa Ruoho of Lackluster -- at least Esa has had a couple prominent IDM artists mention his name as an influence on their work, and he's influenced both the IDM as well as the tracker scenes (like Bogdan Raczkykszkzkzyksynszky). I can't think of anything Khonnor has done that's left a mark on the art of IDM. --I am not good at running 01:54, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

You might think it interesting to know that khonnor and lackluster have known each other well for several years via irc. Aghost 04:02, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• Delete, not notable. Megan1967 02:22, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

very notable. Aghost 16:37, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• Delete, not verifiable. -- Hoary 04:09, 2005 May 21 (UTC)
• Rewrite and Keep. It is tempting to believe that Aghost is unable to create articles on notable people, but this one is it: Google for Khonnor handwriting (artist + album name) and you get some 900 links, many reviews from reputable sources like the New York Times. Rl 07:27, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: yes, there does seem to be something there. Incidentally, one (unfavorable) review told me his name is Connor Kirby-Long. Does he get an article on the strength of one album? -- Hoary 08:11, 2005 May 21 (UTC)
  • I have removed the unverifiable stuff. All that's left is a stub on a young musician who got rave reviews from people who are into this kind of music (e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4]). Rl 08:55, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
• Comment: Note that this article was not written by Aghost, he edited it, mostly to add stuff relating to himself. Rl 08:49, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

And to tell you the truth khonnor is rather offended that his own as well as my revisions were removed, as they are rather factual. Aghost 18:45, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• User:Khonnor has made 0 edits to the page [5]. And it's not like edits can't be replaced. Maybe the page's talk page is a better place to discuss this, though. This page is just to decide whether or not the page should be deleted/kept. What is actually on the page (should it be kept) is a matter that isn't relevant here. R Calvete 18:59, 2005 May 22 (UTC)

for the record user 66.92.46.119 is user:khonnor and myself previous to either of us creating accounts. Aghost 22:09, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• Abstain. Don't really know. It's now verifiable, but it's not all that impressive. Don't much care. (But I hope I've improved it very slightly.) -- Hoary 09:04, 2005 May 21 (UTC)
• Keep notable IDM. Klonimus 19:49, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

• Borderline: The reviews exist, so that makes him notable enough, but this is very thin ice. A single record isn't really a career, and the fact that it attracted our vanity friend doesn't cheer anyone. Keep, barely, but watch. Geogre 20:45, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
• Weak keep, does exist, verifiable. Doesn't seem to meet WP:MUSIC, but I don't consider that to be gospel. I also don't think it's fair to say he shouldn't be included because he hasn't been an influential IDM musician. There are plenty of musicians that aren't very influential. R Calvete 02:22, 2005 May 22 (UTC)
• Userfy to User:Khonnor -- Hoary 03:06, 2005 May 22 (UTC)

• Comment: Again: I have released on multiple net labels and have gotten coverage from multiple influtential publications like NME. This whole debate is very frustrating due to the fact that users are vandalizing my page with non-factual information when it was originally factual. The fact that one user changed my hometown from Saint Johnsbury, Vermont to "Vermont, Illnois" proves how little dedication and knowledge that the user has of the afformentioned scene and my music. Please take the time to look at the history of this stub and the petty revisions users have made in reaction to wwcarpen/everythingrecords/aghost.

If this page is deleted it will be created again by a fan, and if this is not possible more issues will arise. My music has conceived a fan-base larger than I can control. Does this not qualify me as a legitimate artist?

In reaction to: "*Abstain. Don't really know. It's now verifiable, but it's not all that impressive. Don't much care. (But I hope I've improved it very slightly.) -- Hoary 09:04, 2005 May 21 (UTC)" Maybe you should start "caring" about the integrity of the artist before electing entries for deletion in addition to vandalizing accurate information. I have deleted your comment due to sheer ignorance of the scene and misinformation plus I found it quite offensive. I have (reluctantly) corrected the mistakes you have made to my page (and forgiven your personal evaluation of my creative work) and this is worth less of my time every minute.

A worthless pedantic mess.

This username was created to protect mine and my label's namesake. Stub existed prior to my posts. And thankfully users Westifer and Steinsky logged their user names. Are they going to be elected for VFD because they are (however distantly) to aghost and wwcarpen?

This information battle should be stopped post haste!

Khonnor 03:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: The screed above was contributed in a series of edits by Khonnor and Aghost. Khonnor, don't delete comments, no matter how offensive they seem. Although I don't know what you mean by your claim to have deleted my (or somebody else's) comment, as a look in the history of this VfD page shows that you did no such thing: I struck through my own earlier comment when I decided that the best thing to do with this article was to userfy it. I don't think "the integrity of the artist" is an issue. Meanwhile, you do appear to be making your own vanity an issue. -- Hoary

this isnt just an integrity of the artist issue this is about the wiki community deciding they know more about an artists persona than the artist themselves. We can either have information in these articles that have been supplied by the artist originally then filtered through numerous proxies until its posted on the internet years later, or you can just listen to the artist themselves, now. Aghost 08:50, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

The Wiki community hasn't decided anything. They are merely attempting to add to the article based on preexisting published sources. Sometimes mistakes happen. Gamaliel 17:10, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• Delete, the attempts by User:Khonnor to turn this article into a PR screed shows that we shouldn't have it here. And threats to recreate after deletion will be dealt with by blocking, if needed. RickK 09:00, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, Khonnor became known to me after i had seen the MTV produced documentary series This Is Our Music [6], where the fourth episode in season two is about him. From seeing that documentary i can say he establish enough notability to be in Wikipedia. bbx 12:42, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, not notable carmeld1 00:50, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:VAIN. Radiant_* 13:59, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep , this guy has been on MTV, released an album that was acclaimed in mainstream media, and before that released some netlabel stuff as seen above. Jbgroove 16:52, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: I agree with this user's first (and so far only) edit. Rl 16:59, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
• Oh, and he also clear fills "Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in a large or medium-sized count" part of WP:MUSIC. . since he toured Sweden earlier this year, playing at least Lund Stockholm and Gothenburg. See [7] for an english review of one of the shows he did. Jbgroove 17:17, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

keep this is getting absolutly ridiculous, see above couple comments for reasons why this article strictly adheres to more (if not all) of the guidelines for a musician article. anyone who is holding a grudge because i made an edit to this page (after its creation, and with the encouragement of the artist himself) needs to seriously look at their ettiquite on the wikipedia. Aghost 00:42, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

• Delete self-promotion. Leanne 05:22, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
• Keep I get some 37k hits [8] so it seems that some khonnor is notable.--MarSch 13:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Appearing as featured on a show on MTV clearly qualifies this article for keep. See WP:MUSIC item #4. Khonnor might not be notable enough for most people, but he clearly qualifies under predetermined watermarks for notability. Him being 18 should not be a factor; keep in mind that George Harrison was only 20 when Beatlemania began. Stick to the policies; age is not a factor here. Notability is. If being featured on MTV is insufficient, then everything is insufficient. --Durin 02:45, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
• Keep This is absurd; quit the ad-hominem attacks and spite. "Handwriting"'s been reviewed on Pitchfork (among other places previously noted). The lack of a presence on AMG is AMGs problem. I don't care whether or not the artist had a part in making the article, it is objectively notable. --Kine 16:50, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

• And to quote WikiProject Music guidelines: "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, dj etc) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria: ... 4. Has been prominently featured in any major music media".

• Keep Khonnor is a notable, and becoming more and more so, musician. He complies with WP:MUSIC #4 for having his release “Handwriting” featured/reviewed in over thirty publications, including more wide-known New York Times, NME, and Pitchfork Media. Not to mention being the feature in an episode of MTVe produced documentary series This Is Our Music. Wouldn’t MTV be considered the most prominent music media powerhouse? He also follows under WP:MUSIC #6. Being notable in IDM is very iffy, seeing as IDM has become quite a general term. When artists from Aphex Twin and µ-Ziq to Telefon Tel Aviv and Boards of Canada have been considered IDM -- it is almost as general as the term “alternative” or “indie.” He is, however, notable in the netlabel scene. Netlabels, although exist almost exclusively in digital format, may not seem tangible, but are definitely quite prominent. With three releases as Grandma on Monotonik, one release on 8Bit Peoples as I, Cactus and others (including Clown Connecktion, although I am not completely sure that is him). And now with a “physical” release on a “real” music label, although not a netlabel, would deem that he is quite a musician. Having over five decent releases, with a good-sized fanbase of listeners, how does any of this not make Khonnor a musician and notable for being on Wikipedia? If anything, his stub should be expanded. --Jordan Burman 09:13, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: This is the very first contribution to WP by Jordan Burman. -- Hoary 09:34, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.