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Administrative problem: first level divisions[edit]

My edit of Douliu was removed and reverted by @Canterbury Tail as "disruptive". I added Taiwan Province as a first level followed by Yunlin County as a second level division. We have a big problem regarding ROC administrative divisions in the free area. So how about this: I'm opening up an RfC if we can propose two options in regards to the ROC subdivisions.

A. First level:

  • Provinces: Taiwan, Fuchien
  • Special Municipalities: Taipei, Kaohsiung, New Taipei, Tainan, Taichung, Taoyuan

B. First level:

  • Autonomous municipalities: Keelung, Chiayi, Hsinchu
  • Counties: Changhua, Chiayi, Hsinchu, Yunlin, Miaoli, Hualien, Taitung, Yilan, Pingtung, Penghu, Kinmen, Lienchiang
  • Special Municipalities: Taipei, Kaohsiung, New Taipei, Tainan, Taichung, Taoyuan

While Google Maps and some maps online treat option B as main subdivisions, do you guys want the Province on the Infobox in its second, third and fourth level subdivision articles?

It's worth noting that Macau SAR got rid of parish governments in 2001 while Lithuania abolished county governments in 2010. The ROC kept Taiwan and Fuchien provinces for administrative and statistical purposes within the government especially the ROC Ministry of Interior still uses it. Getting rid of provinces from the ROC administrative structure would provoke the PRC.

@Amigao @Remsense @Game2Winter @matt smith, you're more than welcome to debate and discuss. -- Silence of Lambs (talk) 15:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am inclined to oppose any framework that uses [[Taiwan|Republic of China]], since it clearly goes against the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME. I’m also inclined to oppose including Taiwan Province in the infobox just because it has no administrative function practically. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Taiwan Province only covers Penghu, 10 counties on Taiwan island, but it could be included with the exception of six municipalities. However, Fujian can stay for Kinmen and Matsu. Silence of Lambs (talk) 20:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion may be better held at that talkpage or at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Taiwan, as it does not directly concern this page. CMD (talk) 00:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks dude. Silence of Lambs (talk) 20:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Republic of China (Taiwan)[edit]

Add Republic of China (Taiwan) as an official name in the first sentence. According to Taiwan government website, Republic of China (Taiwan) is the official name. https://www.taiwan.gov.tw/about.php JDCohan (talk) 03:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Caption fix[edit]

Grammar fix in image caption in section "Relations with the PRC"; "Ma–Xi meeting was the first" should be "The Ma–Xi meeting..." 104.232.119.107 (talk) 03:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 03:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan is an island country[edit]

Taiwan is an island country. It's even listed on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_island_countries as such, and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Taiwan begins with "Taiwan is an island country in East Asia." Other articles like that of Japan or Madagascar also begin with "X is an island country in Y / off the coast of Z..."). It's not strictly necessary but how come this article doesn't begin with "Taiwan is an island country"?


This is pretty much an edit request (please edit the article with this suggestion if it's valid) but I'm more interested if there's a reason why it's not already since I'd assume it to be obvious. Sorry if it's been brought up before, I did check the recent archives of this talk page but couldn't find anything. Thank you 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hope it's clear this is a geographical, not political, issue 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that is clear, i see no reason not to add island. Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done See the 2020 RfC. Remsense诉 16:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This request does still call it a country. Slatersteven (talk) 16:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If RfC participants thought island country was permissible, they likely would've specified. Very few did so. Remsense诉 16:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be an assumption, not covered by the close which only covers the issue of county, which this does not change. I can only go by myself, but I try to answer the RFC question asked, not any ancillary matters (so if asked whether we call dogs animals I would say yes, not yes but also call them 4-legged) Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only an IP and I'm just repeating Slatersteven's point but I would disagree, the debate was over whether Taiwan should be referred to on Wikipedia as a "country" or as a (sovereign) "state", not over the geography. If Hungary's status was disputed for some reason you wouldn't bother specifying in an RFC that you believe it as a "landlocked country" in place of a "landlocked state", right? You would just comment "I think Hungary should be called a country", I don't think the fact that most didn't specify in the 2020 RFC is worth much. Adding "island" does nothing to dispute Taiwan's political status. Ultimately this is only a minor and not-necessary change and it's up to actual editors like you though. Thank you 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 17:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean we can but in general it can get a bit wordy... And there is wide variation across the project, for example we use just country for Indonesia and for the Phillipines we use "archipelagic country" but with a link to archipelagic state. Personally I would rather that they all just say country in the first sentence of the lead and do geography elsewhere in the lead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree it doesn't matter much, the lead is clear it is made of islands, the inclusion of it as an adjective or not is just flavouring. CMD (talk) 02:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it is just flavoring, but I think “island country” would be quite descriptive and helpful both in the first sentence and in the short description. I think we all agree this would still satisfy the 2020 RfC consensus to use “country.” Butterdiplomat (talk) 03:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly agree it doesn't affect the RfC result either way. CMD (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would be in favour of the change, but some people have objected to it in the past. As I recall, the arguments were (a) it's not just one island, but several little ones too, and (b) claims to the mainland. Of course the first is true of all the other island countries too. Kanguole 12:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
not true! CMD (talk) 01:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just add the link.. Island country ....not a big deal and leads readers to info like "a country whose primary territory consists of one or more islands or parts of islands. " and a map that talks about this small country. Moxy🍁 12:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think claims to the “mainland” (a historical and partisan claim) should dictate how the country is factually described. This description also does not prevent the historical ROC claims from being included elsewhere in the article. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Saying Taiwan ROC is an island country is different from saying ROC controls the island. Making them equivalent sounds too much like a political position about its territory. I don't think the first sentence of this article should implicitly promote one. Leave "island" out. The third and fourth sentences already describe the situation as-is. "The territories controlled by the ROC consist of 168 islands with a combined area of 36,193 square kilometres (13,974 square miles). The main island of Taiwan, also known as Formosa..." CurryCity (talk) 13:06, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t see the discrepancy or political position. The ROC is (as it stands and as described, like you say, in the next few sentences) an island country. It is a country (which is a political statement deemed accurate from various RfC processes), and it is made of islands. What do you feel is the position the statement implicitly promotes? Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:32, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seconding Butterdiplomat, need some explanation of what you mean by this. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:13, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article already begins with calling Taiwan a country, not a state or just land controlled by the ROC. That's a political position of its territory already. Island countries aren't any more or less legitimate than continental countries, why would calling Taiwan an island country be changing anything? 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:71EA:103B:48DE:BCF8 (talk) 17:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the major problem with disagreement on marking the ROC as island country because quite amount of people consider the concept of Taiwan and the Republic of China are not exactly the same, despite being largely overlapping in their current territorial extent. Many people especially those pro-KMT advocate the idea that the ROC still owns sovereignty over Mainland China or Mongolia in constitutional terms. Actually this page once had a discussion not long ago regarding the constitutional claims made by the ROC (see Talk:Taiwan/Archive 39#"Current ROC territorial claims" vs. "historical ROC territorial claims"), the country template show a map [1] depicting a “historical territorial claim” without any reliable supporting sources. Some editors have expressed their concerns about the constitutional terms which did not exactly apply any specific territorial extent to the ROC sovereign claims. Therefore, in practice we may call it an island country, but somehow the wikipedia decided to take a neutral ground on that definition, which was “country” as a consensus in common, but we do not give any explicit definition for the ROC being a state claiming to be a country that beyond the islands of Taiwan or a country limited to these islands. Sheherherhers (talk) 00:14, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very well put, thank you. Should "island country" ideally be removed from the article on the geography of Taiwan and Taiwan from both the list and map on the list of island countries? 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:71EA:103B:48DE:BCF8 (talk) 10:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really think this is the problem, exactly. States and countries are never exactly the same thing—one is an abstraction describing a self-contained administrative, legal, and general political structure, and the other is a greater abstraction encompassing additional, more transcendent elements, e.g. of identity. In English parlance, people feel they are countrymen, they might say they identify with a country—but it would be a much narrower, more cynical statement to say that one is loyal to a state. COMMONNAME aside, this is why it makes sense to call Taiwan a country—because it is one, regardless of the legal fiction of any state.
That said, I don't agree with your formulation because the article isn't about the Republic of China as such, it's about the country Taiwan. There's a hidden conflation there like there is with every article about a modern state because that's what people expect—the article will include the entire political history of the region where the state now is, etc—but it's still a distinction to make.
I'm not personally opposed to calling Taiwan an island country, I just think it's better to be as parsimonious as possible with the rules for pragmatic purposes, given how many gray-faith and bad-faith editors constantly land on this talk page. Remsense诉 10:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is worth the discussion. Adding “island country” to the short description and the first sentence brings the page in alignment with other island countries, like Japan or Sri Lanka or New Zealand. For the same reason the term is used on the pages, it would make sense here. As a very minor point, “island country” distinguishes Taiwan from Thailand (unfortunately still often confused today) more quickly in the search results.
Just to play devil’s advocate to your point about gray- and bad-faith editors - what exactly do you think their argument would be? Since the term doesn’t change the substance of the lede, the fact that it may attract bad-faith comments makes it worth the clarification IMO. It feels like there is a reason bad-faith editors would want to avoid the clarification, and we shouldn’t cave to their agenda. Butterdiplomat (talk) 12:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are fair points. Pencil me in as neutral. Remsense诉 12:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are different theories as to the actual territory of ROC and whether that has changed. Wikipedia should not pick and side with one. So the first sentence should not go into the territory of Republic of China, since parts of ROC and Taiwan have been combined into this article.
Remsense touched on the difference between state in the political sense and country in the general sense, political or not. Equating ROC which is the name of a state with island country is not supported, although you may be able to argue that ROC controls the island country of Taiwan including minor islands.
It's 2024. Not that many English speakers are still confused about Thailand and Taiwan. CurryCity (talk) 04:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lede already defines Taiwan as a country, which was the RfC consensus. To Remsense’s point, there is a distinction between country and state, and the article is already about the country. So, it is consistent to then extend the description to say island country.
The article is also about the modern state of the ROC, the actual territory of which is not really in dispute (at least the vast majority of it). The only dispute is one of official recognition, which is a matter of political status and also doesn’t have any bearing on the description of the island country in any case. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:34, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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