Talk:Zürich

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Zürich article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4: 365 days

Switzerland Top‑importance

	Switzerland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Switzerland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Switzerland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SwitzerlandWikipedia:WikiProject SwitzerlandTemplate:WikiProject SwitzerlandSwitzerland articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Cities

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities articles

This article has previously been nominated to be moved.

Discussions:

Moved, 3 December 2010, from Zürich to Zurich, see discussion.
Moved, 16 August 2013, from Zurich to Zürich, see discussion.
Endorsed, 24 August 2013, from MRV, Zurich to Zürich, see discussion.
No consensus, 3 September 2013, from Zürich to Zurich, see discussion.
No consensus, 30 November 2021, from Zürich to Zurich, see discussion.

Name[edit]

In the Name section of the article, we currently read, "In English, the name used to be written as Zurich, without the umlaut. Even so, standard English practice for German names is to either preserve the umlaut or replace it with the base letter followed by e (i.e. Zuerich)." This assertion is incorrect on two counts:
1. The default English spelling of the city is still Zurich with no umlaut, as evidenced by Google's counting: Zürich shows 135,000,000 results, while Zurich shows 488,000,000 results.
2. Standard English practice for German names is NOT "to either preserve the umlaut or replace it with the base letter followed by e". Dusseldorf is the normal English version of Düsseldorf, just as Zurich is normal English for Zürich. --Michael Bateman (talk) 21:05, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with you. Zurich is clearly still predominantly spelled "Zurich" in English. I'd love to have a re-vote on moving this article (and all the rest with Zurich in the name) back to "Zurich". What do you think? — tooki (talk) 17:04, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, Swiss people spell it "Zürich" and pronounce it [ˈtsyːrɪç] if they're speaking German, but the spell it "Zurich" and pronounce it [zyʁik] if they're speaking French. No one would argue that "Zürich" is the proper spelling the French, "Zurich" is just the French language name. "Zurich" in English is loaned from French and the English pronunciation /ˈzjʊərɪk/ is an approximation of the French pronunciation, with a velar plosive at the end. Arguing that be should use the German spelling makes no sense unless you're also arguing that we should use the German pronunciation. Queewe (talk) 16:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a native speaker of English and a second-language speaker of German, I completely agree with Michael Bateman and tooki. Check any English-language news source and you will find "Zurich", not "Zürich". This issue needs a re-vote. SRamzy (talk) 15:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am also sceptical of the claim that Daniel Jones (1997) says that the name is more recently pronounced with initial "ts", as in German. More likely, this last clause was inserted and misrepresents what Jones says. The only pronunciation I have heard IN ENGLISH is /zurɪk/. However, it´s likely that RP speakers would use initial /zj/. SRamzy (talk) 17:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm tempted to open a move request, which I will do unless there is a discussion about the name --Spekkios (talk) 20:36, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Before you do. Spekkios, please read through all of the move discussions linked in the header right above this section, and browse through the archives for other discussions not linked. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 21:01, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely should be moved, and yes, I've read the arguments. In English Wikipedia, the native "Roma" is listed as "Rome", "München" listed as "Munich", so why make an exception here? "Zurich" is absolutely the predominant spelling in the English language. Ebab (talk) 12:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just nodding towards the lengthy discussion from a few years ago you'll find below this post. People have talked their mouths raw about this, and it really doesn't matter one way or the other. Trigaranus (talk) 20:10, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Except for Wikipedia, I never see it spelled any way except Zurich. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. It remains mind-boggling to me, as a native English speaker living in Zurich, that a) this was ever up for debate, b) the wrong side won, and c) that we can’t get it fixed. In real-world practice, there is absolutely no question that the no-umlaut version is what is normally used in English. — tooki (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive editing by ORT5000 and Mission Q8[edit]

Two users, ORT5000 and Mission Q8, are edit warring to push a highly dubious claim based on an obviously unsuitable source. Despite several users having pointed out that the source fails WP:RS and the claim is unsupported, the users keep pushing it. I've warned both users, and will report any further policy violation by either of them. Jeppiz (talk) 10:25, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've reported them both (obviously the same editor) at ANI. Seasider53 (talk) 10:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And both are now blocked as socks. 86.177.26.80 (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling without umlauts removed from lead[edit]

Hello,

It has been established in the numerous move discussions that the spelling "Zurich" is also used in English, some say "traditionally", others say "more commonly".

The alternative spelling was removed from the lead by an unregistered editor in February 2020 although the two spellings had been present in the lead since 2005. You could argue that "Zuerich" should be present as well, but looking at the Ngram results here, "Zurich" is more widely used.

Like Bern, I think both spellings should be present in the lead as their absence seems to confuse some editors: [1][2][3][4][5][6].

If you need citations, there's a long list here compiled by User:MadGeographer.

Thanks. Thibaut (talk) 17:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 June 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that Zürich be renamed and moved to Zurich.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Zürich → Zurich – Zurich appears to be the name most commonly used in English-language sources, including by the city itself[7], Zurich Airport[8], Swiss Railways[9], airline Swiss[10], and Zurich local transport newtork[11]. I agree that there are some English-language sources that spell it Zürich, but they are either those that consistently prefer localised spelling (Düsseldorf, Łódź, or Hồ Chí Minh City; BBC and Britannica often fall here), or those that follow Wikipedia. Yet, non-umlauted spelling, even if not universal, appears to be the English norm. — kashmīrī ^TALK 06:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. Zürich is German, even if sometimes used in English-language writing. Umlauts are not used in English and are not universally understood by English speakers. Station1 (talk) 04:57, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per my !vote in the 2021 RM. BilledMammal (talk) 05:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The nominator should write what exactly has changed since the 2021 RM. Otherwise, there is no point in repeating the same discussion. FromCzech (talk) 05:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Three years on from a no consensus close it can be appropriate to revisit the question, even absent any dramatic change in circumstances. BilledMammal (talk) 05:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nominator. Killuminator (talk) 07:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Other than Wikipedia, it's fairly uncommon to see it spelled in English any other way than Zurich. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Nothing has changed since the previous RMs. It's certainly not true that Zürich is not commonly seen in English-language sources. Comments that "Umlauts are not used in English" are utterly irrelevant (and also not entirely true). Omitting the accents in foreign names is no more than ignorance and a holdover from the days when we used typewriters and they had to be written in by hand. No excuse for it now. Yes, it's true that official websites often omit them; they do it because they think we English-speakers are ignorant, parochial idiots who can't handle foreign languages. Proposals like this just show that they're right. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced it's technical limitation, as the city is still not pronounced [ˈtsyːrɪç]. Rather, Zurich is an anglicised spelling, more akin to Copenhagen (original: København), Vienna (Wien), Rome (Roma) or Cracow (Kraków). So, my feeling is that there's no "right" and "wrong" form – there's the German form and there's the (more popular in English sources) anglicised form, and we need to chose between the two. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"they do it because they think we English-speakers are ignorant, parochial idiots who can't handle foreign languages." Where do you get off thinking that? They could do it because English so rarely uses or teaches it. They could do it because of technical reasons. They could do it because they want to do it. We don't know what's in their minds and to say otherwise is balderdash. What you are saying is conjecture and those who blindly agree are simply agreeing with what you are making up. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Per Necrothesp. Alex2006 (talk) 13:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This has been debated to death with repeated RMs over the decades. We have chosen how we choose to write the name and we should stick with it. And I agree with Necrothesp. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 15:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, Ngrams supports it and all I see from opposition is opinions. Likely the non-umlauted form is the WP:COMMONNAME used by even the Swiss themselves (in English). Dank Jae 18:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support as a Zürcher myself, I've never seen the umlaut spelling in English publication. Plus the name of the city is not pronounced with the umlaut sound in English. One should see "Zurich" as the English translation it is, not just a typographical mistake. Broc (talk) 19:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]