Talk:Geoffrey Howe

No successor for DPM?

wasn't prescott dpm only recently? --Xorkl000 11:42, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Try reading Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. You'll see that it was left vacant for nearly five years after Howe's resignation, so "vacant" is an appropriate successor, even if the post was later filled by Heseltine and then Prescott. --rbrwr^± 12:24, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Should it a link to Howe's resignation speech be included - the address is http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199091/cmhansrd/1990-11-13/Debate-1.html#Debate-1_spnew51

Welsh

I attended a meeting at which Lord Howe was a speaker. He stressed that he was Welsh. Aberavon is in Wales. So he is entitled to be referred to as Welsh. Ausseagull (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source of him declaring being Welsh over British? The title doesn't help much as its complete form is "Baron Howe of Aberavon of Tandridge in the County of Surrey". Aberavon may be in Wales, but you might have a bit of trouble with the Surrey bit.

He has been a British MP serving only English constituencies during his career and the article makes no mention of any significant involvement with Wales beyond his birth. You will have to provide something more substantial than an unsourced speech at a meeting. Road Wizard (talk) 19:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a problem with him being Welsh? He doesn't. Mind you, I doubt if Neil Kinnock would mind being described as British either. Perhaps Lord Howe doesn't meet your stereotype. Ausseagull ([[User talk:Ausseagull|talk] 07:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

You simply need a source and/or a consensus here given that his place of birth etc. is established. --Snowded ^TALK 08:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I have no problem with him or anyone else being Welsh, Irish, Scottish, English, Cornish, British, French, German or any other nationality. I would have responded the same way if you had changed it from Welsh to British or English to British. What we need here, as Snowded said, is a source and/or a consensus that he is known as Welsh more than he is known as British. Road Wizard (talk) 19:20, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll change British to Welsh in a few days' time unless anyone objects. I could always write to Lord Howe at the House of Lords if anyone wishes to deny that he is Welsh. OK? Ausseagull (talk) 12:01, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Not really. You have been asked for a published source for this one, so please provide one. Your sole case for changing it appears to be that Lord Howe told you he was Welsh; I will accept that as being true, but Wikipedia needs fact, not truth. If you can't source something to a reliable publication then we cannot accept its inclusion. A personal letter would also not be acceptable unless the contents, or a synopsis, of the letter are published by a reliable source.

If you have an alternative argument for why Welsh is preferable to British in this case then please make it. Regards. Road Wizard (talk) 18:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Why do you want to deny this guy his nationality? Because he doesn't fit the "boyo" stereotype? Ausseagull (talk) 08:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not trying to deny anything and it is quite insulting that you are suggesting I am operating with some sort of ulterior motive. The criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia is fact not truth. If you want to emphasise his specific nationality over the one that appears in his passport then please provide factual evidence or a case for change that is stronger than "I don't like him being called British".

The closest thing we have to a guideline in this matter is WP:UKNATIONALS. The suggested criteria for changing the nationality are:

• Consider why the existing nationality was chosen. - born in Wales but linked mainly to England; most notable activities were to represent the country at a UK level.
• Examine the article for details that support the existing label. - as above, the only aspect of the article that seems to emphasise "Welsh" over "British" is his birth. There seems to be no other mention of Wales in the article.
• Look for existing consensus on the discussion page, and in any archives that may be present. - there seems to be no previous discussion but two separate editors have asked you to provide a stronger case. Your response is to introduce accusations of stereotyping.
• Conduct research to be certain your choice is preferable (you can consult the guide above). - the only evidence we have so far is that Lord Howe told you he prefers being called Welsh to British. Unfortunately while I assume that is true, it does not meet our requirement for reliable sources.

If you have further evidence or an alternative case to make (that doesn't involve accusations of stereotyping) then please provide it. Road Wizard (talk) 10:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That's a fair reply. He is Welsh by parentage, birth and childhood, but English-educated and sat for an English constituency, so yes, you've made the point, British. I don't think that you have an ulterior motive, but some do (have a look at the discussions on Chris de Burgh and Peter O'Toole, for example). I'm very conscious of Thomas theorem and although we can't dismiss perception, surely if we are to be encyclopedic, we need to beware of stereotypes.

Incidentally, I looked at the entry for Lee Grant, the Sheffield Wednesday goalkeeper, and he's called English. But Michael Caine was "British" until I changed it. I didn't need to change Penelope Keith. She was down as English in the first place. Ausseagull (talk) 16:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussions on Ian Woosnam are interesting in this context. Someone is doggedly claiming him as "Welsh", although he was born in England to an English family and grew up there (and now lives in England). Lord Howe, Welsh born, is merely "British" in comparison.Poshseagull (talk) 07:39, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Weasel...

Just reading this for a bit of background info. Thought somebody might want to change this:

" Some commentators regard Howe as the most successful Chancellor of his era. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.35.217.148 (talk) 19:16, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Resigned from the Lords

House of Lords Reform Act 2014 says he resigned in May 2015. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:03, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Aberfan

Aberfan disaster mentions “the argument of Geoffrey Howe on behalf of the colliery managers”. Should his role in this be mentioned in this article? JDAWiseman (talk) 21:14, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Geoffrey Howe participated in the Aberfan tribunal as counsel for British Association of Colliery Management & National Association of Colliery Managers. We should mention his participation, but I haven't come up with the right words. We don't know whether and how it affected his politics, but it must have been harrowing, particularly if he had young children. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:51, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Lawyers have clients, some laudable, some terrible, many in between. Cab-rank rule prevents lawyers being too fussy. So there’s no stain on Howe’s character by his having been so employed. Was his presence there notable, or did it have an effect on him or anybody else, to be worthy of comment? This is a question — I don’t know. JDAWiseman (talk) 15:47, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

References

Crest

In the Coat of arms of Geoffrey Howe section we have:

• Crest Upon a Howe turfed proper a Wolf courant Sable mantled with a Fleece of a Sheep sans head holding in its mouth a Remnant of Cloth Gules

The illustration does not show a wolf or a fleece. The description is a clear reference to the "like being savaged by a dead sheep" quote. Is this a hoax or an example of Howe's sense of humour? The text is in the cited source,[1] but 'Cracroft's Peerage' appears to be self-published. Is it a reliable source? (Alerting Robin S. Taylor who added this material.) Verbcatcher (talk) 01:21, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

• I have only depicted the shield, not the crest. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 01:55, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Can you comment on the reliability of Cracroft's Peerage? We can use self-published expert sources, see WP:SELFPUBLISH. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:10, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Image

Hello. I changed the lead image and it was reverted. I understand this (and apologise if it was reckless) but I do think it was an improvement. This is just my opinion, and as always, if more people prefer the former I will concede.

• Resolution

The 2011 picture is of a much higher resolution than the 2003 photograph, showing Lord Howe in sharper detail and gives a better impression of what he looked like. The 2003 photo is grainy and saturated.

• It's more recent

The 2011 photograph shows Howe at a later date. I know that the most recent photograph of somebody is not what is universally preferred, but it would make the most sense here, given that Howe has died.

• It fits MOS:PORTRAIT

MoS states "It is often preferable to place a portrait...so that they "look" toward the text..." and both images do this. However (and I have put this before, so sorry for the repetition) it also says, "Use the best quality images available. Poor-quality images—dark or blurry; showing the subject too small...should not be used unless absolutely necessary." and I feel that the 2011 portrait illustrates this better.

• 
  Option A
• 
  Option B

Thank you for reading. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

• Ideally we should have a photo of Howe when he was most prominent, i.e. when he was a cabinet minister. Something like the photo in his Guardian obituary. This is partly so that readers who are old enough will recognise him from TV appearances, Unfortunately, none of the photos in c:Category:Geoffrey Howe are ideal. File:Geoffrey Howe (1985).jpg is our best likeness from this period, but its technical quality is too low. Of the two photos above I favour Option A, as it is more recognisable and has a more animated facial expression. Its technical quality is poor, but is adequate for the infobox. I have disguised the image quality by reducing the image size, which in any case is appropriate for an upright photo. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:07, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree that a photograph showing Howe during his Cabinet days would be ideal. But, as you said, since no such thing exists on Commons I still stand by my original post; Option B is better in almost every way, except the fact that it was not taken during his political career. Because of this, we have to pick one of the two from his retirement, and Option B is, in my opinion, a better fit for this. If you flip through both photographs you see he looks remarkably similar in both: the hair is virtually identical, the ears haven't changed a bit, he's still as bespectacled as ever and even the liver spots on his forehead are in the exact same position; it's just that he's older in one, has a slightly more professional facial expression and is a better quality and nicer looking photograph. In 2003 he looks like he doesn't know he's being photographed: in 2011 he definitely does. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:50, 25 March 2022 (UTC)