Talk:Muhammad

Frequently asked questions, please read before posting

Please read Talk:Muhammad/FAQ for answers to these frequently-asked questions (you need to tap "Read as wiki page" to see the relevant text):

1. Shouldn't all the images of Muhammad be removed because they might offend Muslims?
2. Aren't the images of Muhammad false?
3. How can I hide the images using my personal Wikipedia settings?
4. Why does the infobox at the top of the article contain a stylized logo and not a picture of Muhammad?
5. Why is Muhammad's name not followed by (pbuh) or (saw) in the article?
6. Why does the article say that Muhammad is the "founder" of Islam?
7. Why does it look like the article is biased towards secular or "Western" references?
8. Why can't I edit this article as a new or anonymous user?
9. Can censorship be employed on Wikipedia?
10. Because Muhammad married an underage girl, should the article say he was a pedophile?

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GA Reassessment

Muhammad

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: While instability is not in itself a reason to delist, poor quality sourcing is; the discussions on the talk page constitute, in my view, consensus that the sourcing has been degraded. Delisted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:49, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

It has recently been brought to light that this page and its sourcing have been altered fairly wholesale since the page was last reviewed and kept as GA, and that there is little reason to believe the level of former quality has been maintained; on the contrary, recent informal assessments by editors have uncovered significant issues in terms of prior content and source removal, as well as in terms of the quality of new sourcing and the resulting balance of the page and its contents. The sum conclusion of the current state of affairs has already been assessed by several editors as no longer meeting GA standard. For details, see the existing talk page discussion at Talk:Muhammad#Removal of "good article" status, as well as the broader discussion entitled Talk:Muhammad#Recent neutrality concerns, and other subsequent talk page discussions. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Fails Wikipedia:Good article criteria It is not stable due to edit warring on the page....: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Moxy- 04:08, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

• Even excluding the wholesale rewriting the article has undergone recently, 2012 is a long time ago, and the article quality standards back then were arguably lower. I do not see a reason to maintain GA status given the current edit warring. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:51, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mistakes in the article in

Poster didn’t read FAQ No. 6

In this article there are some mistakes, In this article it says that Muhammadﷺ. is the founder of Islam and that's not true . Islam existed from the time of Adam(AS) The first human being and the first prophet of Islam. Islam,The religion of The only true God ALLAH(SWT). MUHAMMADﷺ got revelation from God(ALLAH) and he was a Messanger and prophet of God(ALLAH) he Warned the Wrongdoing peopleto go to the right path. BrotherAnasibnmalik (talk) 17:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC) See Q6 in the FAQ at the top of this page. This is an encyclopedia, not a religious text. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC) Bro it doesn't matter when you are talking about Islam take info from authentic sources of Islam Mahdi2812 (talk) 18:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC) @Mahdi2812: Bro we don't use primary sources to make statements in Wikipedia's narrative voice, per policy; see WP:PRIMARY. We use reliable scholarly sources instead. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Il y a une erreur sur le nom

Il est écrit Mahomet alors que c’est mohammed et non Mahomet qui a été changé par l’occident cela est une insulte s’il vous plaît pouvez-vous remplacer je vous en prie. 2A01:E0A:BA7:C090:CDF0:8B54:567:CA80 (talk) 12:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Please use English in the English version of Wikipedia. "Mahomet" is only used in titles of other works, as it must be. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Information not correct

Poster didn’t read FAQ No. 6

When yor are talking about Islam or prophet Muhammad (s.w.a). YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK BY YOUR SELF TALK ACCORDING TO INFORMATION GIVEN IN ISLAM. NOW WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? PROBLEM IS THAT PROPHET MUHAMMAD IS NOT FOUNDER OR CREATER OF ISLAM AS YOU SAY, ACCORDING TO MUSLIM AND IT'S OUR BELIEF THAT ISLAM WAS THEIR BEFORE ANY OTHER RELIGION SO YOU CAN SAY THAT HE IS INTRODUCER OF ISLAM NOT CREATER OF FOUNDER Mahdi2812 (talk) 18:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC) No. See the answer to question 6 in the FAQ at the top of this page. Also, please don't use caps. It certainly won't mean you are more likely to be listened to. DeCausa (talk) 18:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC) Actually, even though I am the author of that FAQ answer, I have always advocated that this article says he "introduced" Islam (an objective fact that cannot be denied by anyone) rather than "founded" Islam. I composed the FAQ answer with that conflict of terms uppermost in my mind, even though I know that the community would never agree to replace "founded" with "introduced". ~Anachronist (talk) 06:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC) It depends what the objective is. If it's to find a compromise i.e. a form of expression that won't offend Muslim sensibilities but is broad enough to not be inconsistent with secular scholarship, then maybe "introduced" would work. But I don't think that can be the objective. Shouldn't the objective be to clearly represent scholarship per WP:DUE? I don't think that "introduced" is clear enough to do that. Everyone knows what "founded" means but "introduced" is ambiguous, which is why it might work as a compromise, but not the sort of compromise that WP should make. DeCausa (talk) 07:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC) That was my thinking too, which is why the FAQ answer is worded the way it is. My preference for "introduced" was grounded more in a desire to end the complaints we get about Muhammad being the founder. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC) I doubt that would work. If Adam, Moses and Jesus were Muslims, Muhammad can not have introduced it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Appeasing believers when trying to write from a secular perspective is just not going to be possible. Maybe something could be added to the "founder" footnote saying something like "Muslims believe that Islam existed prior to Muhammad/has always existed", though I don't have a good citation in mind. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC) The early lead-statement "...he was a prophet divinely inspired to preach and confirm the monotheistic teachings of Adam..." covers that reasonably IMO. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC) I agree, seeing that the man is creator of the main religious text in Islam and the secondary religious texts are presented as his deeds and judgements. He is a founder and should be explained as such here. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 13:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC) "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK BY YOUR SELF TALK ACCORDING TO INFORMATION GIVEN IN ISLAM." Ummm.... no. Your insistence that we must follow your religion is grossly offensive. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

"Foretold his prophethood"

Hi @BilledMammal. Thank you for taking part in the monitoring of this article. Regarding the text "who foretold his prophethood" that you deleted, this detail is the main point of the whole Bahira story, so I think its inclusion is quite essential. If it's a matter of wording, will you please suggest how you think it should be written? Just as a note, there's already "Islamic narratives say" in the earlier part of the sentence. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 17:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Where is the Mecca of the Article

If the person sent by the Single God, was born in a place called "Mecca", and the Mecca we now call "Mecca" in what is now Saudi Arabia was founded during the first century of the Muhammadanism, does that mean all our early references to "Mecca" in this article should be to "Mecca" of Petra, in Jordan? Mysha (talk) Mysha (talk) 13:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Is this related to "Recently, Petra has been put forward as the original direction of Muslim prayer, the Qibla, by some in the revisionist school of Islamic studies, namely that the earliest mosques faced Petra, not Jerusalem or Mecca. However, others have challenged the notion of comparing modern readings of Qiblah directions to early mosques’ Qiblahs as they claim early Muslims could not accurately calculate the direction of the Qiblah to Mecca and so the apparent pinpointing of Petra by some early mosques may well be coincidental." (from Petra) ? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. "Oh, yesterday we didn't know how to do that", is always the defense of those who have no better answer. But regardless, do we really have to claim Atlantis lay in the Atlantic Ocean, for no reason than to not have proof that it did lay somewhere else? Likewise, if there is discussion about the identification of Mecca, shouldn't our article reflect that? Mysha (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Petra does mention that. If it is WP:PROPORTIONate to include in this article is another question. You can make a suggestion on what text you want to add where with what refs here on the talkpage and see if people have opinions. Or you can wait until WP:30/500, be WP:BOLD and see what happens. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Depictions of Prophet

Poster didn’t read FAQ No. 1

Could you remove depictions of Prophet in the article. There are billions of Muslims in the World. Do you think these are acceptable to Muslims? SaloxiddinTursunaliyev (talk) 16:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC) See Talk:Muhammad#Frequently_asked_questions,_please_read_before_posting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC) There are billions more non-Muslims in the world. Do you think your attempts to control them are acceptable?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC) And not even all those billions of Muslims agree about said depictions. - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 19:50, 24 April 2024 (UTC) That's right. @SaloxiddinTursunaliyev: The Persian Wikipedia article on Muhammad, presumably maintained by Muslims, seems to find the depictions acceptable. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC) They have a mural of him in Tehran. - Sumanuil. (talk to me) 21:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

genocide perpetrator

I think that we should add this category because he committed Invasion of Banu Qurayza. Sharouser (talk) 13:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Well he is included on the category list. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 14:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Removed that cat per WP:CATVER. Which WP:RS says this was a genocide, and what content do you suggest adding to the Muhammad article based on them? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's an unreasonable notion, but taking "Consequently, 600–900 men of Banu Qurayza were executed. The women and children were distributed as slaves, with some being transported to Najd to be sold." from "war" to "genocide" needs decent sources doing the lifting. That's my view. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Well then we may have to add Moses and many others from ancient times. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There were three Jewish tribes that were in a treaty with the Muhammad, and these tribes all violated the treaty, with hostile attitude, communications with the enemy, and an intent and attempt to fight the Muslims and assassinate Muhammad. The two tribes Banu Qainuqa and Banu Nadir were merely exiled due to their insistance in hostility and danger to security, but one of them, Banu Qurayza, were a degree higher in treachery, and were incited by Quraysh to oppose the Muhammad and the Muslims, so there was no choice but to fight against it from a security standpoint. Now, in terms of the number that is spread of how many were killed, this is debated, by analysing whether such a number was possible and what the origin of the claimed number is, as well as asking: "who was killed?"; because killing civilians is prohibited in Islam, so this would indicate whatever number was killed were combatants, but we cannot even accurately confirm how many were killed in the first place. Academically, you cannot just mention one thing and conveniently not mention the reason for it, and none can rely on a historian's estimation when he did not witness it as a reliable number of the death toll. In any case, what is expected it a treaty is broken in such a way? Your edit suggestion to me seems ingenuine and has sprouted as a result of modern day events. MahmoudBinOmar (talk) 07:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Patronymic name extension on 15 May 2024

Extend the info box patronymic to include what is verified up to Muhammad's forefather Adnan

Ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim ibn ʿAbd Manāf ibn Quṣayy ibn Kilāb ibn Murrah ibn Ka'b ibn Lu'ayy ibn Ghālib ibn Fihr ibn Mālik ibn An-Nadr ibn Kinānah ibn Khuzaymah ibn Mudrika ibn Ilyās ibn Mudar ibn Nizār ibn Ma'add ibn 'Adnān

ٱبْن عَبْد ٱللَّٰه بْن عَبْد ٱلْمُطَّلِب بْن هَاشِم بْن عَبْد مَنَاف بْن قُصَيّ بْن كِلَاب بْن مُرّة بْن كَعْب بْن لُؤَيّ بْن غَالِب بْن فِهْر بْن مَالَك بْن النَّضْر بْن كِنَانَة بْن خُزَيْمَة بْن مُدْرِكَة بْن إِلْيَاس بْن مُضَر بْن نِزَار بْن مَعَدّ بْن عَدْنَان MahmoudBinOmar (talk) 07:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Source? Preferably a modern-day historian, in English if possible, but other languages are fine, as long as the source is WP:RS. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Melmann 19:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Night Journey Information Incorrect

The claim that the Quran does not refer to the ascension into Heaven (Mi'raj) is false. This is a topic discussed in Surah An-Najm, verses 13-18. I will push changes once I've analyzed the relevant content and determined what revisions need to take place. Emperor Ibrahim I (talk) 07:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The cited source clearly supports the content:

Muhammad's night journey. The qur'anic grounding of the ascent (mi'raj) of Muhammad is tenuous in two ways. In the first place, the ascent is not described and the term mi'raj is not used in the Qur'an. Secondly, the Qur'an stresses that Muhammad brings no miracle (q.v.) other than the divinely-wrought miracle of the Qur'an itself (see INIMITABILITY). Even so, key qur'anic passages are woven through the post-qur'anic narrative of Muhammad's ascent.

Here at Wikipedia, we only report what reliable independent sources (see WP:SOURCE), in this case secular academic sources, say. Not users' original research. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 08:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The Satanic Verses & Banu Qurayza

Throughout Muslim and Non-Muslim sources, there is not a single "Sahih" (Authentic) report of the Satanic verses incident. Every one of these is either "Sahih Mursal" (Sahih in chain but disconnected) or lower such as "Da'if" (Weak). QcTheCat (talk) 03:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

This article states that the most "authentic reports" tell us that there is no evidence of the Banu Qurayza's break of the treaty. But there very clearly is. Banu Qurayza also did not deny the accusation, this is completely false. As we see in Taarekh At Tabari:

Banu Qurayza Leaders to attackers: "There is no treaty between us and Mohammed and no covenant." (The History of Tabari: Events of the Year 5)

There are many more but I'll include one to start the conversation

QcTheCat (talk) 04:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You say sahih this sahih that, then you quote Tabari. Did Tabari give labels to each account of his books, whether they were sahih, hasan, daif, etc.? No, not to my knowledge. Besides, Tabari also recounts the event of The Satanic Verses (vol. VI, SUNY Press, pp. 107-112). Regardless, we at Wikipedia only report what reliable independent sources say (see WP:SOURCE), which in this case are secular academic sources, and as far as I know they don't categorize reports as sahih, hasan, daif, etc. If they consider an event to have happened, then we report it, simple as that. Also, please read our policies regarding WP:OR and WP:NOTCENSORED before becoming WP:TIMESINK to other editors. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 06:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Well actually, The "secular academic sources" have to take a bulk of their information from Muslim sources because they were the earliest sources of information about Islam. As for At-Tabari, he was a scholar of Qur'an exegesis (Tafsir) and an Islamic historian. Whenever he provides some information, he gives an Isnad (chain of narrations), meaning he provides the narrators who inform him of the topic and how they received their information. It is then up to the scholars of Uloom al Hadith (Hadith Science) to check whether the Isnad is authentic. For example, for the Satanic verses. Imam Tabari provides this chain of narrators:

Abu Al Aliya > Dawud > Mu'tamir > At-Tabari

Here the primary source is Abu Al Aliya, however he is a second generation Muslim, which means the narration is disconnected. TLDR is that the primary source was not an eyewitness or an earwitness and therefore we cannot rely upon this report. An academic sources may mention this report to show difference of opinions at the time, but the fact is that this report and thus any academic sources that takes from it is not providing authentic information.

However with the report in the History of At-Tabari (Taarekh At Tabari) where he reports on the deceit of Banu Qurayza, he reports it as a fact that is confirmed. The whole narration of Kab bin Assad's (Banu Qurayza's chief) breaking of his treaty with Mohammad can be found in "The History of At-Tabari" Vol. 8 Events Of Year 5, pg.15 QcTheCat (talk) 02:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Did you actually open and read the links I provided above to some of Wikipedia's policies? If you were writing for an encyclopedia dedicated to spreading Islam, then maybe your original research would matter, but not here. We simply report what reliable independent sources say, which in this case means secular academic sources. And we don't censor things because they're considered offensive to followers of religions. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 04:43, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Did you even read what I said in my reply. I am not asking you to change the article to make it "non-offensive", I never said that. I have no problem with it not being "Islamic", I am explaining that the information is objectively inaccurate. The article says:

"no evidence substantiates such an attack (by Banu Qurayza), and the tradition had every reason to dramatize the incident as a justification for the subsequent massacre."

Yet, You will see that even the sources quoted in the article such as Maxime Robinson's "Muhammad" quote early Muslim sources and say that the sources they used did not seem to find any evidence for Banu Qurayza's disobedience. But what I am saying is that there is clear evidence for Banu Qurayza's disobedience that perhaps. So, If I can bring an objective historically accurate proof against the position of the current sources then the source should be reconsidered. I quoted you At-Tabari. At-Tabari provides historic proof that Banu Qurayza did in fact break their treaty in his

1. "History of At-Tabari" It seems like you didn't take me seriously and didn't check the source I provided. Vol. 8 Events Of Year 5, pg.15

2. And also there is more proof in Sirat Bin Ishaq.

These are very concrete sources which academic sources quote much, these sources prove Banu Qurayza's responsibility in their execution QcTheCat (talk) 06:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Tabari, as well as other early Islamic sources, are primary sources that are not independent (having conflicts of interest), mixed with legendary tales from Muslim narrators, and so on. It is the task of independent secondary sources, or, in this case, secular academic sources, to determine which of the stories are facts or mere fabrications, not the task of Wikipedia users. See WP:PSTS: "All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 07:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

QcTheCat (talk) 09:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

There are many secular secondary and tertiary sources which mention the deceit and break of the treaty by Banu Qurayza. One of these is a book by WM Watt, one of the most quoted Historians for Islamic Wikipedia pages. In his book Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman, He said:

They (Banu Qurayza) had been intriguing with Muhammad’s enemies and at one point had been on the verge of attacking Muhammad in his rear. They had thus been guilty of treasonable activities against the Medinan community.

("Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman" Ch.6 pg.171 by WM Watt)

I have provided two primary sources:

1. "History of At-Tabari"

2. "Sirat bin Ishaq"

And now one secondary source too:

"Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman" QcTheCat (talk) 09:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

"On the verge of attacking" here simply means "They were close to attacking, but ultimately did not carry out the attack at all." And this report comes from Islamic sources written by Muslims several hundred years after Muhammad's death (they clearly had conflicts of interest there). So I see this as not really contradicting the Rodinson and Gabriel sources, which say more or less "but no evidence substantiates such an attack, and the tradition had every reason to dramatize the incident as a justification for the subsequent massacre". — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 10:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

As WM Watt says, Banu Qurayza were "intriguing with Muhammad’s enemies" and at "The verge of attacking". I have already told you in every one of my responses, Banu Qurayza broke their treaty. I never said they massacred the Muslims, If that was the case, Islam wouldn't exist today. Banu Qurayza had negotiations with the Quraysh, and then were prepared to attack. That is a very clear break of their treaty which states that they were not to share resources, plot against the Muslims or attack, etc. How is punishment for breaking of a treaty that was almost to result in a massacre of the Muslims, considered a "dramatisation". QcTheCat (talk) 17:46, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Watt seems pretty clear. If there are contradictory sources that present alternative narratives, those can also be mentioned, but I can't see a reason to rule out what Watt plainly states. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

So the Qurayza only "prepared to attack" but did not actually carry out the attack, is that right? Which means that there were no casualties caused by Qurayza to the Muslims at all, right? But Muhammad then decided that all the adult men of Qurayza had to be killed and their women and children enslaved, with some sold to Najd to finance the purchase of weapons and horses for the Muslims, right? And all of this, including the claim that Qurayza was preparing to attack, is based on Muslim sources, right? This does not seem to me to contradict Rodinson's and Gabriel's analyses above, more or less: "But no evidence substantiates such an attack, and the tradition had every reason to dramatize the incident as a justification for the subsequent massacre." Considering that Muhammad had also intended to massacre another Jewish tribe, Banu Qaynuqa, before this, which failed to be realized after the chief of Khazraj, Abdullah ibn Ubayy, threatened him. In the end, that other Jewish tribe was only expelled, with their possessions becoming the property of Muhammad and his followers. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 20:37, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you are understanding what I am explaining. Breaking of the Banu Qurayza's Treaty took place with "Negotiations with Quraysh" and "Preparation for attack". Negotiations with Quraysh does not mean a little dinner, it means supplying weapons, funding the Quraysh. This funding was going to Quraysh's army to attack Medina.

And this is from secular academic sources themselves, as Karen Armstrong says in her book "Muhammad":

"Initially Qurayza were hesitant, but when they saw the vast Meccan army filling the plain in front of the city as far as the eye could see, their chief agreed to help the confederacy and provide the Quraysh with weapons and supplies."

(Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" Ch.4 "Jihad", Pg.148)

If a group of people from the USA government started sending funding to the Chinese military during a war, they all would also be executed. Would that be called a "dramatisation" and a "massacre"? QcTheCat (talk) 03:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, as I proved by Sahih Muslim 1766, This kind of act of treason added to what I will mention soon, was considered as waging war and Banu Qurayza knew this, they had done this on a smaller scale before:

"The Jews of Banu Nadeer and Banu Quraiza waged war against the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, so he expelled Banu Nadeer but he allowed Banu Quraiza to stay and he granted them favor until they also waged war after that." (Muslim 1766)

Also, then Muhammad didn't outright put them all to death. He sent Sad bin Muadh to negotiate and make peace:

"He sent Sa‘d ibn Muadh, who had been Qurayzah’s chief Arab ally before the hijrah, to negotiate, but to no avail." (Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" ch.4 pg.148)

And along with this, Banu Qurayza actually did do some action themselves:

"At one point, the Qurayza actually started to attack the fortresses on the southeast of the settlement, but the effort petered out. For about three weeks, it was quite unclear which way they would go." (Ibid ch.4 pg.148)

Attacking a fortress, supplying the enemy with Military aid, denying peace treaty even when prompted, knowing this to be an act of waging war. This is a clear form of treason, extended to even a war. Almost every country in the world considers this to punishable by death QcTheCat (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Initially Qurayza were hesitant, but when they saw the vast Meccan army filling the plain in front of the city as far as the eye could see, their chief agreed to help the confederacy and provide the Quraysh with weapons and supplies.

This is the first time I have heard of it. Can you provide the early Islamic sources, as you always seem to be keen on doing? Personally, I do not consider Karen a reliable source, but merely an author. If she is considered a reliable source, then Robert Spencer is a super reliable source. I never use Robert either, though, and I do not consider him reliable.

If a group of people from the USA government started sending funding to the Chinese military during a war, they all would also be executed.

Really? Are their children and women also enslaved and sold to buy horses and weapons?

Would that be called a "dramatisation"

You seem to misunderstand. The dramatization here means that the story (the one used to justify the massacre) was probably riddled with fabrications. And Rodinson and Gabriel believe that the Muslims had every reason to do so (fill the story with fabrications to justify the massacre).

A "massacre"?

If they killed them en masse, of course.

Sahih Muslim 1766

Why did you not copy these parts of the hadith as well?

"Then he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, ... The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) turned out all the Jews of Medina."

He sent Sa‘d ibn Muadh, who had been Qurayzah’s chief Arab ally before the hijrah, to negotiate, but to no avail.

This is also the first time I've heard this. Can you provide early Islamic sources that mention the part "to negotiate, but to no avail"? — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 04:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

1. I already gave you the early source, Sahih Muslim 1766:

"The Jews of Banu Nadeer and Banu Quraiza waged war against the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, so he expelled Banu Nadeer but he allowed Banu Quraiza to stay and he granted them favor until they also waged war after that."

Waging war and breaking the treaty were two different occurences. The treaty was broken by Kab, and war was waged when the tribe sent weapons and ammunition

2. Any source I provide you have just written off. Tabari? He's probably just imagining, and no justification for this explanation was given. Watt? Oh he just meant they were having dinner with Quraysh nothing more, this I disproved too. Armstrong? She isn't reliable either, and all the scholars who have praised her work are just deluded? I get that you likely don't mean to actually deny proper evidence. But you are going to have to give me a criterion for what you consider reliable since you have already written of 3 formal historians.

3. This is ridiculous. Banu Qurayza waged a war as I explained with sources, and in those times, all men were expected to work together to make an army for the tribe. Therefore the militants who were the men were executed, and the women and children were taken as captives of war, and were to be given all the rights a regular Muslim was given according to Islamic law, such as right to continue family, the master was obliged to provide food and water he would expect for himself, etc. the only thing they were excluded from was payment. Some of them would have probably been freed too because freeing slaves was a massive part of Muslim culture.

4. There is absolutely ZERO proof for fabrications in the story. A claim presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Even though, I have already provided you evidence but that's just an extra at this point.

5. Early source for Sad bin Muadh's trying to consolidate the Banu Qurayza and Muslims? I gave you your academic sources that you kept demanding and now you are asking for the early sources that you keep denying? Fine, Here's the early source then:

the Messenger of God sent out Sa'd b. Mu'adh b. al-Nu'man and Imru' al-Qays and said: "Go and see whether what has reached us about these men is true or not. If it is true, speak to me in words that we can understand but that will be unintelligible to others, and do not break the strength of the people. But, if these men remain loyal to the pact between us and them, announce it to the people. So they went out and came to them. They found them engaged in the worst of what had been reported about them. They slandered the Messenger of God and said, "There is no treaty between us and Muhammad and no covenant.""

(The History of Tabari, vol.8 pg.15)

6. Now, explain to me after all this evidence I have given you and you have just denied with very little explanation. What kind of evidence would it require for you to admit fault in the current sources and article? QcTheCat (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

And the proof for Slave treatment laws that were applied to the captives of Banu Qurayza and all slaves in general is found in several Hadith such as:

‘Your slaves are your brethren upon whom Allah has given you authority. So, if one has one’s brethren under one’s control, one should feed them with the like of what one eats and clothe them with the like of what one wears. You should not overburden them with what they cannot bear, and if you do so, help them (in their hard job).’” (Sahih al-Bukhari 2545) QcTheCat (talk) 08:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking at this other hadith, it seems that it was Muhammad who started the war after receiving instructions from the angel Gabriel:

Sahih al-Bukhari 4122
... When the Prophet returned from the (battle) of Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and laid down his arms and took a bath Gabriel came to him while he (i.e. Gabriel) was shaking the dust off his head, and said, "You have laid down the arms? By Allah, I have not laid them down. Go out to them (to attack them)." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Where?" Gabriel pointed towards Bani Quraiza. So Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) went to them (i.e. Banu Quraiza) (i.e. besieged them). ...

This further proves that we should not blindly follow sources that have a conflict of interest. Incidentally, I couldn't find what Karen mentioned in the hadith you quoted and the one I quoted, so I'm not sure where she got that information. Karen only majored in English, which is not at all relevant to the subject. Her book is at best equivalent to a novel. Regarding your original research, which includes an apologia for Muhammad's massacre of the Banu Qurayza men and the enslavement of their women and children, some of whom were sent to Najd to be sold to fund the purchase of weapons and horses for the Muslims, I will refrain from commenting on that for now, so this thread doesn't go further deviating from the purpose of making an encyclopaedia. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 04:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm now sure what part of Watt's "intriguing with the enemy" is unclear. Within the context this was treasonous conduct, and treasonous conduct, throughout all human history, has been dealt with harshly. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It is important to note that all reports from that time are from the Muslim side. And we don't know for sure whether there really was a treaty between Muhammad and them or not.

Bernard Lewis says that the "treaty" Muhammad enacted, which was also concerning the Jews there, is "not a treaty in the modern sense, but rather a unilateral proclamation."

This publication from Liverpool University Press says that Muhammad fought the Jews “through trickery.”

The Encyclopaedia of Islam, published by Brill, says that the transcription of the conversation between the chief of Banu Nadir and the chief of Banu Qurayza reported by Muslims is “open to grave doubt."

It has already been stated in our article that “Muhammad besieged the tribe, alleging they had taken sides against him, which they firmly denied.” I think that's enough to impartially convey what happened at the time, rather than parroting everything said by Muslim sources who clearly have a conflict of interest. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 02:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

It is true that all the reports of this treaty are from the Muslim side. However, histories can only be written on proof. We can speculate on what happened, but history can only be described by whichever claim has most evidence, and in this case, a proper treaty is the most authentic claim, and we have proof of this:

The enemy of God, Huyayy b. Akhtab, went out and came to Ka'b b. Asad al-Qurazi, who was the possessor of the treaty and covenant of the Band Qurayza. Ka'b had made a truce with the Messenger of God for his people, making a contract and covenanting with him on it. (History of Tabari vol.8 Pg.14)

The enemy of God Huyayy b. Akhțab al-Nadri went out to Ka'b b. Asad al-Qurazi who had made a treaty with the apostle. (Sirat bin Ishaq part III pg. 453)

The news finally reached the Muslims that the Banu Qurayza had broken their agreement. Fear intensified and the trial became overwhelming.

(Al Waqidi's Kitab Al Maghazi vol.2 pg.225)

On the same page of Kitab Al Maghazi, Al Waqidi reports with proof via a mention of narrator:

Ibn Abı Sabra related to me from Harith b. al-Fudayl saying:

The Banu Qurayza intended to raid the main part of Medina by night. They sent

Huyayy b. Akhtab to the Quraysh to bring with them a thousand men, and from the

Ghatafan a thousand, to attack them.

Ibn Sad also narrated

Abu Sufyan Ibn Harb sent Huyayy Ibn Akhtab on a secret mission to Banu Qurayza requesting them for violating the agreement (عهد) they had made with the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, and join them (polytheists). (At first) they declined. but subsequently they agreed

Ibn Sad's Kitab Tabaqat al Kabir vol.2 pg.82)

And this claim is also supported by scholars such as R.B. Serjeant who was one of the leading Arabists in 20th century Britain

"Treaty concluded prior to Khandaq among the Arabs of Yathrib and with the Jewish Qurayzah, to defend it from Quraysh of Mecca and their allies"

(The "Sunnah Jāmi'ah," Pacts with the Yaṯẖrib Jews, and the "Taḥrīm" of Yaṯẖrib Pg. 9)

Is it actually possible for this many sources across different time periods to agree on 100% of the details of a fabricated event? No, these sources I have quoted here are the earliest Islamic biographical works in history. And then I even quote secular academic scholars as requested such as R.B. Serjeant who is highly praised in his community. And he completely agrees, because there is simply such a vast abundance of evidence in favour of:

A proper treaty with Banu Qurayza, which was later broken by Banu Qurayza's chief Kab bin Assad after temptation from Huyayy bin Akhtab, and not upheld even after Sad bin Muadh's and other Sahabi's (companions of the prophet) attempts a reconciliation. And that too with physical force from Banu Qurayza too.

There is simply no conflict of interest, otherwise we would expect at least a few early sources which deny the treaty and its violation, but it is simply not there.

And as for the hadith you quoted Bukhari 4122. I appreciate that you quoted an early source. However hadith such as those found in Sahih Bukhari are not histories and often provide simplified explanations. Hadiths (أحاديث) are "narrations" which means that they are quotes from people not full stories. We can only reconcile hadiths with other hadiths to compile a full story, and in this case we have to reconcile it with the hadith in Sahih Muslim which unequivocally states that Banu Qurayza waged war. QcTheCat (talk) 06:05, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

And another source for Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty is Academic Jonathan AC Brown's book "Muhammad, a short introduction" where Brown writes:

-

The Banu Qurayza Jews, whose compounds lay outside the defences of the town, broke their treaty with Muhammad and sold provisions to the Meccans.

(Jonathan AC Brown's "Muhammad, A very short introduction" Part 1 Pg. 42)

And there is more on the next page

But first Muhammad faced the question of the Banu Qurayza Jews. They had betrayed their non-aggression pact with the Muslims, and as the Meccan army left, they blockaded themselves in their forts and prepared for a Muslim siege.

(Ibid Pg.43)

-

Now I have given 4 modern sources, 3 of them are scholars

And 5 early Muslim scholars QcTheCat (talk) 08:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

"Brown is Sunni and follows the Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence." So not really independent there. The rest of your argument seems to be mostly WP:OR.

Furthermore, as Bernard Lewis said, the so-called treaty is "not a treaty in the modern sense, but rather a unilateral proclamation."

This publication from Liverpool University Press says that Muhammad fought the Jews “through trickery.”

The Encyclopaedia of Islam, published by Brill, states that the transcription of the conversation between the chief of Banu Nadir and the chief of Banu Qurayza reported by Muslims is "open to grave doubt."

This publication from the University Press of Florida written by military historian Russ Rodgers says:

One piece of evidence that casts doubt on the notion that the Qurayzah had violated any nonaggression pact with the Muslims involves the conduct of Muhammad and his men when the coalition lifted their siege. Instead of turning directly on the treacherous Banu Qurayzah, the Prophet sent his men home and he returned to ῾Aisha’s single-room apartment to bathe. While there, the angel Jibril came to chide him for laying down his arms. When Muhammad asked who he was to now fight, Jibril gestured toward the east and the Banu Qurayzah. This line of conversation, repeated in nearly every early source, raises an important question. If the Banu Qurayzah’s treachery had been so obvious, why was the Prophet so oblivious to it?

Another military historian, Richard A. Gabriel, whose book was published by the University of Oklahoma Press says:

In the absence of any reliable account of Jewish treachery we might reasonably conclude that Muhammad decided to exterminate the Beni Qurayzah because the opportunity had finally presented itself to rid Medina of a major competitor for influence and because it would strengthen the insurgency politically.

One thing that's almost certain is: "Muhammad besieged the tribe, alleging they had taken sides against him, which they firmly denied.” And that has already been stated in our article. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 09:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Addendum

History of At-Tabari ... Vol. 8 Events Of Year 5, pg.15

If we want to engage in original research, there are many red flags in this narration. This is an account from a Muslim several hundred years after Muhammad's death about a conversation between the chief of Banu Nadir, Huyayy ibn Akhtab, who insisted on inciting the chief of Banu Qurayza, Ka'b ibn As'ad, when he came to his fort to turn against Muhammad. The Muslim clearly had a conflict of interest here. How he came to know about the conversation—whether he planted a bug in the flowerpot there or it was just his imagination—only God knows. Besides, the attack didn't happen at all. Even if, despite how unlikely I think it was, the conversation did really happen, why did the Muslims not just punish Ka'b alone? Why did all the adult men of the Qurayza also have to be massacred and the women and children enslaved, with some sold to Najd, where the profits were used to buy horses and weapons for the Muslims? The narrative just sounds like an overly forced justification to me. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 11:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

As for the "red flags", firstly Tabari was a scholar and a historian. Now, just because a source is written at a later time doesn't mean it isn't authentic. For example, Tabari gets his reports from Imams such as Ibn Humayd and Ibn Hanbal who trace it back to the prophet and his companions. This is how we know he provides authentic information. For example, only two pages before page 15, he provides a chain of narration from Ibn Humayd and Muhammad bin Ishaq from Abu Hurayra (a companion of the prophet).

He came to know of this conversation between Kab and Huyayy because the companions would have narrated reports of the events that would take place in the life of Mohammad. And we know it happened for sure because Kab never rejected the fact that he deviated from the treaty. The fact is that Tabari is among the earliest sources of information and We have even earlier sources such as Sahih Muslim (840 CE),

"The Jews of Banu Nadeer and Banu Quraiza waged war against the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, so he expelled Banu Nadeer but he allowed Banu Quraiza to stay and he granted them favor until they also waged war after that (Before their persecution)."

(Muslim Hadith no. 1766) QcTheCat (talk) 17:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Also as for the narration in Tabari, that is also confirmed by modern academic sources, such as Karen Armstrong:

Before the arrival of the Meccan army, Huyay ibn Akhtab, chief of Nadir, had tried to persuade Qurayzah either to attack the Muslims from the rear or to smuggle two thousand Nadiris into the oasis to slaughter the women and children in the fortresses. Initially Qurayzah were hesitant, but when they saw the vast Meccan army filling the plain in front of the city as far as the eye could see, their chief agreed to help the confederacy and provide the Quraysh with weapons and supplies.

(Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" ch.4 "Jihad" pg. 148) QcTheCat (talk) 03:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

We don't want to engage in OR. If you have to preface a comment with a disclaimer that you're about to engage in OR, simply refrain from it. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

References from all posts in the section from all editors