Talk:Nonviolence

Pacifism vs Passivity

I'm not sure I agree with the notion that pacifism and passivity are synonymous. Pacifism is about antiviolence, how does that equate to being passive? How is that different from nonviolence? Sonofathens (talk) 23:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

This article seems clear to me in saying that nonviolence is different form passivity.

The best forms of nonviolence -- nonviolent direct action -- expose hypocrisy or stupidity in existing policies. With Gandhi's Salt March, he set out to deliberately break British law that forbade Indians from making salt. He marched 240 miles in 24 days, 10 miles per day, telling people along the way that he planned to make salt in violation of British law. By the time he was arrested 53 days later, millions of Indians were making salt illegally or buying illegal salt.

Seventeen years later, the British could no longer govern India. They quit. A few thousand had been killed in the interim, but no where nearly as many as would have been killed with violent resistance, which may not have succeeded. See Wikiversity:Effective defense and sources cited therein. DavidMCEddy (talk) 00:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Guevara, Trotsky, Frantz Fanon, and Bose on nonviolence

Hello, User:178.223.205.58 If it's "well known" that Guevara, Trotsky, Frantz Fanon, and Bose considered and rejected nonviolence, then it should not be difficult for you to provide reference(s). Please do NOT remove the {{citation needed|date=June 2023}} flag without providing such references. Wikipedia invites almost anyone to change almost anything, writing from a Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, citing credible sources.

I spent a couple of hours yesterday looking without success for sources to support claims I remembered having seen before and thought should be obvious. I've spent days in many other projects similarly searching for evidence that I never found or found only with substantial effort. If all this is so "well known" to you, then the needed reference(s) should be easy for you to find. My person experience with such searches is that the evidence too often eludes me. Please help educate me and others similarly uninformed and discontinue Wikipedia:Edit warring. The world needs your wisdom but not your vandalism. Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 12:08, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Hm strange as there is many about that people and can be added even more, about those in question, their stances on violence and rejection of nonviolence are well known and any denial of it would be pretty funny.

About Bose for example this,Trotsky this, Fanon this(by Sartre), Guevara.178.223.205.58 (talk) 23:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for these references. Your reference for Bose what you said, as does the Wikipedia article on him. I will add your reference to his name in that "Criticism" section.

However, I find no mention of either Gandhi or nonviolence in the references you've cited or other material I've seen on Frantz Fanon, Trotsky and Che. Trotsky was assassinated in 1940, so it's plausible to believe that he never explicitly considered nonviolence as potentially useful. Fanon died in 1961 shortly after his Wretched of the Earth appeared. The first section of that book is entitled "On violence", but a search for "Gandhi" and "nonviolence" in that book yielded nothing.

The documentation on Che that I've seen says that he was a fervent advocate of violence, but I don't find mention either of Gandhi or nonviolence in either the article you cited or in the Wikipedia article on him.

I therefore plan to limit that list of "fervent critics of nonviolence" only to Bose. From what little I know, one could legitimately ask if any of Trotsky, Fanon, and Guevara ever bothered to seriously consider the possibility that nonviolence might actually be effective.

One might add Malcolm X to that list, but I won't do it myself. He and King were clearly contemporaries, and Malcolm explicitly criticized some of King's nonviolent tactics. And Malcolm's thoughts on race clearly changed after his trip to Mecca in 1964-April. They may not have changed regarding nonviolence, but I'll leave that to others.

My own view matches the research of Chenoweth and Stephan mentioned in this article. For example, the African-Americans of the 1960s and 1970s with the most violent rhetoric like the Black Panthers were demonized in the media and gunned down by law enforcement, gangland style with no discussion in the media that I've seen suggesting that violated the rights to due process, etc., enshrined in the US Bill of Rights. It's relatively easy for people with power to demonize apostles of violence and then kill them without bothering with trial by jury, etc.

Acceptable? Thanks for the references. DavidMCEddy (talk) 06:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Fourth paragraph of lead section

It’s sloppy and may need deletion or a rewrite into three or four sentences. Needs to be appropriately sourced. 2600:100C:B037:E65A:D07:3D09:CF56:D1D3 (talk) 04:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism warning

A massive complete deletion of the lead section is vandalism and is not tolerated at Wikipedia. Offenders may get blocked. Rjensen (talk) 14:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Intro image

@Howardcorn33 and Randy Kryn: I agree with user:Randy Kryn: Gandhi was THE leader who first demonstrated the power of nonviolence to the world. His face should grace the lede of this article.

Also, the image suggested by user:Howardcorn33 is NOT one of the iconic images in the history of nonviolence, and I do not think it belongs in this article, since this article already seems long. I think Wikipedia would benefit from an article on a "List of major nonviolent campaigns", starting with the 100+ in the database of Chenoweth and Stephan -- or the 50+ that they scored as "successful". I've provided my analysis of the 5 of their 100+ campaigns in the section on "The nonviolence of the First Intifada" in the Wikiversity article on "v:How might the world be different if the PLO had followed Gandhi?". Such an article could contribute to the literature by offering Wikipedians a place to comment, critique, and expand on that list. Image like that suggested by user:Howardcorn33 could have a place in such an article. However, I do not plan to take the lead in constructing such an article -- beyond what I've already done for the "five campaigns in Palestine or involving Palestinians" in Chenoweth's NAVCO 1.1 dataset. DavidMCEddy (talk) 09:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The reason I chose the image of the protestor handing flowers to police is that its a direct example of somebody committing to nonviolence in the face of a dangerous situation. a simple portrait of Gandhi’s face doesn’t serve as a direct example of nonviolence. if you have an image of Gandhi directly showing an example of nonviolence, then I will compromise and allow that as the lead image. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 17:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Mohandas Gandhi lived his life in such a way that his image alone is enough to portray the concept of nonviolence. His work in applying the concept to public goals and events became symbolistic of what nonviolence, as a science of societal action and love that he largely pioneered, could achieve. This is the reason the image has been stable for 10 years, readers "get it" that Gandhi himself has become a descriptor of the term. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with having an image showing Gandhi in the lead. My problem is that the current lead image is merely a photo-portrait of his face which doesn't really give an example of nonviolence specifically. If we could instead have an image which shows Gandhi showing his philosophy of nonviolence in practice, that would be a much clearer representation of the concept of nonviolence. The current photo in the article is merely a symbol of Gandhi himself, not an example of nonviolent action.

I offer the following images which may be agreeable to all of us:

• 
  Gandhi at the Salt March, one of his most famous nonviolent protests.
• 
  Gandhi picking salt during the same protest, which was a criminal, yet nonviolent, act of civil disobedience.
• 
  Gandhi spinning yarn. Gandhi promoted spinning yarn to reduce reliance on British machine-produced fabric and thereby boycott it. Boycotts are another act of nonviolent action.
• 
  Gandhi performed various fasts to promote Indian independence. Another nonviolent action.

I am perfectly fine with any one of the above images replacing the current lead image. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

As I said above, Mohandas Gandhi's image alone personifies nonviolence. The opening image has been stable for ten years, and should continue as the lead image. There are many images which show the science of nonviolence in action, and they all lead back, in some form, to Mohandas Gandhi. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with User:Randy Kryn. This article could use links to the Wikipedia article on Salt March and the section on Civil rights activist in South Africa (1893–1914) in the Wikipedia article on Mahatma Gandhi, but I do not plan to take the time to do that. The alternative images do not show his face as well and therefore do not communicate as well as his face, in my opinion. DavidMCEddy (talk) 00:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The third image (Gandhi at his wheel) does have both his face and his iconic spinning wheel. And Gandhi’s face alone does not communicate nonviolence. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 05:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, those aren’t even the only options we have. Gandhi was photographed a lot during his lifetime, so you are free to suggest other photos. These are merely the photos which seemed pretty obvious to me. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 05:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, I don’t see why we can’t have it both ways. Gandhi’s face tells us nothing about the action of nonviolence itself. Gandhi’s face isn’t in and of itself an action of nonviolence. Also not all images which “show the science of nonviolence in action” lead back to Gandhi. There are of course images of nonviolence people participating in nonviolent action before Gandhi was even born.Gandhi didn’t invent nonviolence. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 05:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)