Talk:The Pogues

Paddy Public Enemy Number One

"Shane McGowan recorded a song called Paddy Public Enemy Number One as a tribute to the Republican leader Dominic McGlinchey, a former leader of the INLA killed a few years before."

In an article on the Shane MacGowan website, Shane himself states "It's about an IRA man, but no one in particular. It's just a story. I'm not expressing an opinion on the IRA," http://www.shanemacgowan.com/articles/mirror96.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.99.27 (talk) 00:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

'Haunted' is not a Pogues song but a 'Shane MacGowan and the Popes' song. Could this be replaced by something like 'Fairytale of New York'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.84.158 (talk) 11:18, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Haunted was originally recorded by the Pogues for the film "Sid and nancy", with cait O'Riordan on female vocals. It was recorded by Shane and Sinead O'Conner as "Shane MacGowan and Sinead O'Connor", not as "The Popes" (83.16.188.58 (talk) 14:50, 20 July 2011 (UTC))

The Pogues are a BRITISH punk band. The distinction is important. The style of music the popularised is important, but it is not traditional Irish music. They use a rock acoustic drum kit. This style has been successful, it is significant, and has been adopted in the US (for example, see the later episodes of 'The Wire', or 'American Land' by Bruce Springsteen), but it is not traditional Irish music.

Me I prefer to use the Celtic punk genre here, but this is a nasty kettle of fish. As can be seen on U2's talk page, ascribing nationalities to bands can get extremely gnarly. The Interior (Talk) 03:38, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The repeated problem in the article and in the talk is that there seems to be a lack of awareness of the gnarliness of "british" et al. For the Irish diaspora (and probably many Irish as well, that is not for me to comment on), british and english are offensive (among other things!). I acknowledge the sincere intention, effort and scholarship of those who have posted and contributed to the discussion. There is simultaneously a clear tone of colonialist patriarchal attitudes embedded within. To be on the wrong side of cultural genocide and intergenerational trauma is a messy and violent thing, which is not clear to an outside observer. It's symptoms show in strange ways to those who do not know it. To have one's identity, history, sense of self and belonging, ripped away, personally and collectively, is indescribable. To be the children, and children's children of those people, you carry that suffering within you. When privileged white englishmen then tell (gaslight) you and the world that you have no right to who you are, it is a continuation of the original violence. It is not an english band. If the englishmen will not concede it, it ('or english') must come second, out of respect. 'London formed Anglo-Irish punk band' is most descriptive and correct as I see it (from a personal and critical/political/academic perspective). A side or later note to point out the attempt at further cultural colonisation by those desiring to claim ownership of The Pogues as english is worthy and important to mention. Punk Gem (talk) 06:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Ain't The Pogues an Irish folk rock band?

Wouldn't Irish folk rock band be more suitable than Celtic punk band they don't really come across as punk.--Vincentnufcr1 (talk) 00:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Celtic Rock then? It's a popular misconception that there Irish when in Fact they were formed in London and are of Mixed English and Irish members. Calling them just Irish is just wrong, though even I am guilty of thinking Celtic Music = Irish sometimes. --Nutthida (talk) 20:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course they're punk, arising from the London punk rock scene of the 1970s, and pretty much defining the Celtic punk genre. Why would you think they are not? -- Foetusized (talk) 23:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course they aren't punk at the most "punky folk" but that's probably pushing it too - more acurately folk and then in the article put something about punk influences.The Beatles used to play skiffle but how ridiculiys would it be to put their genre as skiffle.That description defintely needs changing it makes the whole article look suspect from the outset. Possibly the most wide of the mark description I've seen on here and that's saying something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.52.204.233 (talk) 18:04, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I think folk would be more accurate. Dirty Old Town and And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda are hardly punk songs...--Jack Upland (talk) 23:20, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

To @Jack UplandJack Upland, @unsigned 2011, @ΤασουλαNutthida and @Vincentnufcr1Vincentnufcr1,

This subtopic is cultural bias through and through (a form of ethnocentrism). To contemporary ears, if perhaps one assumes the Dead Kennedys are the only true version of punk (or Blink-182?), then it's easy to say The Pogues are folk rock or 'punky folk'. This view does not understand the musical reality of punk when The Pogues were formed or the proceeding decade. It also does not even touch on the ethos, history, philosophy or practice of punk. If you get punk, you get that the The Pogues are punk. Punk Gem (talk) 07:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

But as I said, some of the songs they sing are NOT punk. I think post-punk rock folk post-futurist ad nauseum would be a better name.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:23, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

The Pogues were an English Celtic punk band

The Pogues were an English Celtic punk band with English band members and were also founded and created in London, England therefore meaning they are an English Celtic punk band. Although this on The Pogues Wikipedia page it does not say that they are an English Celtic punk band and only says that they (are a Celtic punk band from London,) with it also just saying London, not London, England even though London is in England and therefore it should say London, England not just London,. Owenfighter1000 (talk) 03:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

This rambling, ungrammatical diatribe is not the least bit convincing. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 13:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

"English Celtic Punk"...For starters "English" and "Celtic" simply don't go together (despite the large number of English folk with Celtic blood, such as myself lol) O_o And who the hell doesn't know that London is in England (Or Britain???) - and the first "issue" is in fact a non-issue - "Celtic Punk" is the genre. --Somchai Sun (talk) 18:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

'Moved away from covers' on Rum, Sodomy?

I don't think the following statement about Rum, Sodomy & The Lash in the 'Band history' section is accurate:

'The album shows the band moving away from covers to original material.'

Red Roses For Me contains one cover version and five interpretations of traditional songs (a total of six non-original compositions). Rum, Sodomy contains three interpretations of traditional songs and two cover versions (a total of five non-original compositions). There are seven Shane McGowan compositions on Red Roses but only six on Rum, Sodomy (plus one by former manager Phil Gaston).

It could be said that the band started moving away from interpreting traditional songs (five on Roses; three on Rum), but not that they were moving away from cover versions (one on Roses; two on Rum) or original compositions (seven on each album).

I'd suggest just removing this sentence. goob (talk) 13:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Peteinterpol (talk) 13:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The Pogues discography

Support split - Discography section is long and should be split to a new article entitled The Pogues discography. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:08, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Elvis Costello

I have reverted the description of Costello as a 'new wave forefather' back to the more neutral 'producer'. It is easy to provide supporting citations for him being a producer, that is beyond reasonable doubt. Whether he was a new wave forefather is just a matter of opinion. Not sure anyway how describing him in this way adds value to an article about the Pogues. Peteinterpol (talk) 06:51, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Irish-British

There can be no justification for removing "British" from the following opening statement: "The Pogues were an Irish-British punk band formed in 1982 and fronted by Shane MacGowan." Regular members James Fearnley, Spider Stacey and Jem Finer were all British. The band formed in London. Can we achieve some consensus amongst editors before any further removal of "British", or can those doing this please explain their reasons for doing so? Peteinterpol (talk) 12:47, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. They're a British band by any objective measure; the current "British Celtic punk band" description is fitting, I believe. The destructive edits seem to have been mostly by folks upset that a band they traditionally considered "Irish" is more aptly described as English or British. A London-based band, formed in England with mostly British members and collaborating most famously with another fellow English singer is most certainly a British band. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 16:18, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Irish-British is not common, Anglo-Irish is the most accurate (and common) terminology. They are English of Irish descent; and it’s this Anglo-Irish identity that is the dominant feature of their music, and indeed their name with it being an anglicisation of the Irish 'póg mo thóin’. In addition to the aforementioned Telegraph, CBS News, ABC, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, The Independent, The Guardian, etc. etc. Martin FGH (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the influence is clear, hence the "Celtic punk" descriptor; the band themselves are predominantly British, with the band having been created in England and based in London. The band's two founding members are English — Shane (albeit born to Irish parents) and Stacy. Jem Finer, Darryl Hunt and James Fearnley are English. It's obvious their music is based on a blend of Irish folk and punk, hence the band being a Celtic punk band, but to describe the band (i.e. its members) as "Irish" or "Anglo-Irish" just doesn't reflect reality.

More importantly: the band refer to themselves as English. Here is an interview where the band describes itself not as Irish, or Anglo-Irish, but as "all English". Likewise, in Fearnley's book Here Comes Everybody: The Story of the Pogues he discusses the "issue" of an English band playing Irish music (here is an article discussing that ("... when the band is taken to task on a radio program, with a panel of "experts" no less, on if an English band has the "right" to play Irish music ...")) and refers to the band as English throughout ("the fact that we were a band that was for the most part English, with just a couple of members who could boast Irish heritage").

Here's an excerpt from the late Philip Chevron, the band's only Irish member, on The Pogues' official forum: "When people like Jem Finer protest, as they have done for 30 years, that the Pogues are not "an Irish band", they are not just semantically noting geographical and demographical facts, but stating a position that has held since Day One: that the Pogues are a bunch of people whose musical influences and interests are multiple and various, and it is this, rather than an intimate knowledge of O'Neill's Music Of Ireland , that gives the music of the Pogues its power[.]" (Source.)

This article hosted on Pogues.com even explicitly says: "none of the members of the Pogues’ primary lineup are Irish by birth: refugees of the dying British punk movement with an affinity for traditional Irish music" and later "in which a British band aggressively appropriates Irish musical traditions" (although not disputing the "Irishness" of the band; i.e. acknowledging their genre as Celtic punk) — and those aren't the only articles on Pogues.com describing the band as English, here's another.

Regarding your links, they're not particularly helpful as sources — the CBS News and New York Times articles are both from the AP newswire. The Guardian article is of the same authorship as the Telegraph article; in fact, in the former he's simply quoting his own words previously printed in the latter. Regardless, I'm not disputing that the band receives various labels, but that "British" (or, "English") are more fitting. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 20:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

"English" is the best way to describe the band considering they've said it themselves, and are almost entirely English members. Just their music is inspired by Irish folk music but that doesn't transform them into an Irish (or "anglo-Irish") group. John Lennon had an Irish parent and spoke of Ireland's influence... The Beatles page doesn't call them Anglo-Irish or Irish-British does it? People just assume the Pogues are Irish based on their music and are surprised to learn they're English. They're English but the genre is Celtic and Irish influenced. 212.92.117.95 (talk)

Nationality wise, and culturally they are undeniably an English *and* Irish Punk Band - it would not be factual to say they are just 'English', nor would it be accurate to say just 'Irish'. I think we can all be grown up enough to agree with that my fellow wiki editors. 5 out of 8 were born in England and not just in London. And while 3 are Irish (Terry, Shane and Phil) - technically Shane was born in England too but has a right to identify as Irish. 2 out of 3 of the founders were English. They mixed two prevailing cultures - The English Punk scene and Irish Traditional Music. Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 17:23, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I have been reading the rules and do not want to get into an edit war. Someone is now changing the band to be only an 'Irish' band and it is going back and fourth. But this change to just 'Irish' is totally false given the majority of the band were English. I cannot seem to see who is doing the edit, (the history page just shows this: 'curprev 21:34, 22 July 2020‎ 84.203.148.236 talk‎ 34,790 bytes -58‎ undo Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit') but perhaps we can talk about this further here and discuss how to come to an agreement? Thanks in advance. Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 21:47, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree broadly, but as above - and as the note on the article explains - the band is overwhelmingly English, in the same sense the Beatles and other bands are; a single member (or two) belonging to another nationality's ancestry does not change the broad makeup of the band. The band is clearly an English one of Celtic influence; not only is this how the band describe themselves, as referenced above, but I believe this description is very well documented and clearly demonstrated by the references in the article, especially in the longstanding note. The article has experienced vandalism and edit warring rather often. Hopefully it subsides once the attention is over, and constructive discussion can continue. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 23:19, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello, yes I see User:Bromographi has been banned. I suppose I worry a bit about it just mentioning 'English' or 'British' because it detracts from the Irish origins of the music and some of it's members. It is also culturally sensitive as I know you are aware and I sort of envisage the like of The Pogues in the same way as Jack Charlton - as heroes that both the Irish and English can celebrate and feel apart of and 'call their own' in a way that unites the two countries.

The evidence used to say they are 'English' in interviews (even though it references only one interview) is from when the Irish members left the band, and while the interview isn't dated at the source point - it must be around 19 October 1993 after the Waiting For Herb album was released and after it's lasting Irish members (Terry and Phil) had left after recording it. It is well known that Shane et al left (among other reasons) because the band were moving away from the Irish tinged music they inevitably regrouped to play. I think that using this interview is not a way to truly represent the historicity of the band and the article was written during an odd time for the band that doesn't really acknowledge the Irish elements very accurately.

It reads 'So none of you are actually Irish. I didn't think you sounded very Irish. I just thought you had lost it from being away. 'No, we're actually all English. Shane was born in England. He did spend some of his childhood in Ireland but he was born in England. Spider's English. Terry Woods and Phillip Chevron were born and bred in Ireland but they're not in the band anymore. They were the nearest thing to Irish. The band started as a London/Irish band, but the emphasis is on London because that's where we came from, that's our roots.' - The article entitled 'The Reformation of That Irish Band From England: The Pogues' seems to hold the natural answer to me in that of mentioning 'England and Irish' and this shows that this is how they were regarded before the interview to some extent. But the article changes this band identity to just 'English' and does not reflect the band as it was for the majority of the time where it did have three Irish members in it and on how the band actually reformed with said Irish members up until Phil's death.

So on this basis Is there a reason why a compromise of 'English and Irish' cannot be reached please to reflect the state of the band when it disbanded rather than an interview written 21 years before their final tours and breakup that lasted 13 years? And furthermore, would the benefits of this compromise not help to put the issue to rest and reflect the band in how it was for the majority of it's existence, both in it's prime and since they reformed in 2001 - 2014? Thank you.Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 06:01, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your message and for joining the discussion! It's pretty common for articles linked in the news to experience a large increase in edits. Regrettably, in this instance, most edits have been unconstructive. I believe it's such a common misconception that the Pogues are Irish and from Dublin, that people swing by the article and 'correct' what they believe to be a mistake without checking the references. It's a shame the article had to be semi-protected due to edits like those (as well as the blatant, abusive vandalism). I'd like to take the time to appreciate the fact you instead investigated the article's sources, and took to the talk page to discuss the matter. It's very much appreciated; open and honest discussion is what makes Wikipedia such an invaluable resource.

First of all, to reiterate, the Pogues are a band founded in London by three English people, one of whom (MacGowan) had parents born in Ireland. More importantly, and something that is often inexplicably overlooked in this discussion, is the band's view of their own identity — it's well referenced in the article (and noted in the discussion above) that the band consider themselves an English band playing a particular genre of music (namely Celtic, coupled with influences from many genres, cultures, and nationalities). Throughout the band's lifetime, it welcomed many new members, the vast majority of whom were also English or British; of these, only Cait O'Riordan and Philip Chevron are known to be Irish.

Let's make a comparison with The Beatles for the sake of argument. As another editor pointed out, John Lennon had an Irish father (as an aside, his surname is derived from O'Lennon, the Anglicisation of "Leannáin"). Of The Beatles, John Lennon once said “We're all Irish” and you can find interviews in which he talks about the heavy Liverpool-Irish influence on the Beatles' music. Would the later addition of Stuart Sutcliffe, a Scottish musician with Irish ancestry, have meant the Beatles were best described as an "English and Irish" group? No, and nor would anybody suggest as such, because they're a band formed in London by English-born musicians, just as the Pogues are; the only difference is the Pogues focused on Celtic music, playing up the Irish element (that is, once the derision they suffered early on for being Englishmen playing Irish music had subsided to the point it stopped being a major impediment to their success (see Kiss My Arse: The Story of the Pogues, where the Pogues' representative Stan Brennan makes reference to the abuse they received in the early days, after MacGowan "came up with this Irish thing")).

Back to the Pogues: so, how did the band view themselves? The official interview cited (The Reformation of That Irish Band From England: The Pogues) which you mention is not the only source given; it's one of many. Crucially, it isn't only Jem Finer who objected to the band being described as "Irish" — Jem Finer, Philip Chevron (who himself was Irish), and James Fearnley have all stated that the band is English, and discussed its misportrayal as "Irish" (or "British/Irish" and, amusingly, "English-Scottish"). Fearnley makes reference to this in his book, Here Comes Everybody: The Story of the Pogues (2012), in the context of the band coming under criticism for being "predominantly" English yet playing music described as 'being of the Celts' (i.e. "traditionally Irish"); as Finer has said, the band's identity is that of a London-founded, English band that plays Celtic music.

Contrary to the objections Finer is referencing here, the fact the Pogues were a band founded in England by English-born members and comprised at all times by predominantly English musicians is not changed by the style of music they play, nor by the later addition of two Irish musicians.

The "English Celtic punk" labelling is absolutely not simply the opinion of myself or other editors. In closing, allow me to quote Chevron himself (source). Keep in mind, not only was Chevron one of the few Irish-born members, but this statement is from October 2010; it cannot be dismissed as outdated or reflecting the band's early stages:

"When people like Jem Finer protest, as they have done for 30 years, that the Pogues are not "an Irish band", they are not just semantically noting geographical and demographical facts, but stating a position that has held since Day One: that the Pogues are a bunch of people whose musical influences and interests are multiple and various". GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 11:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Ghostofnomeme, thanks for the warm message that is very nice to hear and sort of gives me hope for the human race in a way, as I slowly feel the ability to have open debate is being societally eroded. But that's another debate haha. I too appreciate the need to debate rather than make things worse or by shutting arguments down. This is a great way to talk about things and understand other points of view - ultimately this very mechanism has been used over thousands of years to create 'understanding' and 'reason'.

Respectfully, I firstly disagree with your first point that it was started by three 'English' people. This is because Shane MacGowan doesn't see himself as 'English' per se, so there is nuance. One of his famously attributed quotes is 'I'm just following the Irish tradition of songwriting, the Irish way of life, the human way of life. Cram as much pleasure into life, and rail against the pain you have to suffer as a result. Or scream and rant with the pain, and wait for it to be taken away with beautiful pleasure . . . ' - so if he saw himself as English, then wouldn't that be reflected in this quote?

I totally agree though that people often wrongly attribute them as being entirely Irish though, but would further the idea that they are 'only English' as inaccurate too. You mention Cait O'Riordan – well actually she was born in Nigeria, so if you are classing her as 'Irish' then surely we can afford the same right to MacGowan? Phil was born in Dublin, but also so was Terry Woods. It should also be noted that on Cait's wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cait_O%27Riordan) that 'She played bass guitar for the British-Irish punk/folk band The Pogues'. So I would willingly take the compromise of 'British-Irish punk/folk rock band' to help solve this issue haha.

Comparing The Beatles to The Pogues is a hard one. They were totally different in style, outlook and origins. The Beatles didn't use traditional Irish songs or instruments at anytime and were actually from Liverpool. Also The Pogues' first album had at least 11 traditional Irish songs on the remastered edition including songs that pull heavily on the Irish identity such as 'Poor Paddy on the railway' and 'Muirsheen Durkin'. Surely these are also testamount to their underlying Irishness? even if it was just Cait and Shane's Irishness – the band owe a lot to Irish Culture and is surely proof of these too being Irish, thus being an integral part of the make up of the bands identity.

Fair enough about the 'Kiss my arse' book, but others including 'Here comes everybody' and 'A Drink with Shane MacGowan' mention how Shane felt like he didn't fit in and that the Irish thing wasn't some kind of gimmick – it was all that Shane knew. This is also well documented on Shane's very own wiki page were he is described as an 'Irish-English Vocalist', so again, surely if that wiki page can describe him like that, then how is it fair that the Pogues cannot do the same being that if you didn't have Shane (who wrote most of the songs and the biggest hitters), then you simply wouldn't have had the Pogues?

Now on the point about what the band say – actually Phil didn't explicitly object to them being described as Irish. You put some of the quote, but Here is the full quote:

'It's not really an issue, and I don't especially want to make it one, but the Pogues were a fully-fledged and realised band about two whole years before they made their debut album. When I say that there were more eclectic influences in the earliest days, and that the Velvet Underground, Country and Rockabilly were strong aspects of what the band did, I say so because I was there. Me and 30 to 50 other people, in the Bull & Gate, the 100 Club, the Sir George Robey, the Diorama, the Pindar of Wakefield and Dingwalls.

Naturally, the "Irish" aspect quickly became the Unique Selling Point as the band began to attract attention, not least from the smug, smacked-out coterie that was the Music Press in the early '80s, because that fitted most neatly with the "drunken paddy" stereotype they were quick to foist upon the band and it's easier to be a lazy journalist than a thoughtful one when you have numerous deadlines approaching and your drug-dealer's left town. After some consideration, I have elected to defend my position on this, not just because of dsweeney's insufferable "earlier than thou" posturing [and I realise the "early days" of the Pogues are a moveable feast, but not if your first Pogues gig was in 1982] but because I realised that this misunderstanding, widespread though it undoubtedly is, remains the source of a number of misapprehensions about The Pogues, but let's just zone in on one.

When people like Jem Finer protest, as they have done for 30 years, that the Pogues are not "an Irish band", they are not just semantically noting geographical and demographical facts, but stating a position that has held since Day One: that the Pogues are a bunch of people whose musical influences and interests are multiple and various, and it is this, rather than an intimate knowledge of O'Neill's Music Of Ireland , that gives the music of the Pogues its power, its passion and its distinction: it is obviously a music made by people of musical erudition who have found, or rediscovered if you prefer, that "Irish" music is uniquely equipped to provide the most direct route to the feet and the heart; but after all this time, when our music has become part of rock's musical vocabulary in its own right and has spawned hordes of imitators, it's easy to forget how comparatively little Irish music there has always been in the Pogues stew. And songs like "Haunted", "Ghost of a Smile" and "Lorelei", to name but three, are much closer cousins of Lou Reed than they are of Turlough O'Carolan [peace be upon him].

And finally, if you actually take the trouble to heed Shane on this subject over the years, you'll find he's saying exactly the same thing. Unlike Jem, Shane and some of the others, including myself, have tended to take the path of least resistance when discussing this in interviews and so on, partly because it's not what a journalist wants to hear when he's already framed his story in his head, but also because we more readily accept that what people really mean when they call us an "Irish band" is that the Pogues music has a Carnival aspect (in that it has a transgressive, libertine streak that people tend to associate with Irishness in, I suppose, a positive sense) that is best enjoyed at face value than analysed too deeply. Nevertheless, academics have filled many chapters of weighty cultural tomes analysing the Carnivalesque Pogues, and most of these books are readily available to anyone who is genuinely interested. '

He isn't saying they aren't Irish, but gently lilts towards his own opinion that he doesn't really care and The Pogues should be seen as a bit of fun and tha he doesn't want to rock any type of boat. So it's really neither 'for' or 'against' the description of the band being described as Irish.

Just look at their prime album 'If I Should Fall From Grace with God' – Aside from Fiesta, it is an undeniably Irish and English album in culture. It features songs such as 'Fairytale of New York' and 'Thousands are sailing' (written by Phil) – both of which describe what it is like being Irish immigrants. Then you have 'Streets of Sorrow/Birmingham 6' – The first part is a song about the troubles from Terry Woods' point of view as an Irishman and he even sings it. Then the second part is back to Shane and describes how 6 Irishmen were arrested and wrongly convicted for a crime in the UK. These republican themes are so Irish I don't know what more to say. Look at the other albums, How can songs such as 'sickbed of Cúchulainn' (which is grounded in Irish mythology and shows just how much MacGowan knew Irish history) not be proof of the Irishness within the band, and other songs that the Dubliners previously recorded such as 'gentleman soldier' and 'South Australia' add to this argument too.

In conclusion and in light of the above, is it not more accurate and inclusive that the label of 'English and Irish band' be applied to a band that owe so much to it's Irish members and Irish themed and traditional songs that appear throughout their entire discography up until the Irish members actually left? As Shane says in this video interview 'Of course I'm proud to be Irish' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcPNwSWky4g) (Please forgive the bad language in this interview!) Best regards and thanks very much in advance.Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 16:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I will admit I am new to this "debate", so I apologize if I misunderstand anything.

In my opinion wanting to call the band English-Irish just misses the point. Bands are not given descriptions like that based on the music they play, and how Shane views his own makeup is irrelevant honestly (in my opinion). The band are members from England - yes they had some eventual ""full"" Irish members but the starting members were all born in England. Most important bit.

It is 100% fine to call it an English band but accept the reality they had Irish attitudes and played music from Ireland and sung about Irish things. When the article says they are "English" I think you (User:Glaaaastonbury88) are thinking this diminishes the Irish aspect. It doesn't!

English is simple the most accurate way to describe the band's makeup and their history IMO. Celtic punk is a English phenomenon and most Celtic Punk bands call themselves English. That doesn't mean there is not Irishness in them as well it just means they are English first and foremost. The band over all do seem to say they rejected being described as Irish as well. I say leave as English. The rest of the article acknowledges the Irish/Ireland influence so this is not the injustice you are reacting as if it is Glastonbury. Just my thoughts on this debate haha. SamHeele (talk) 16:41, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

To be fully clear here what I mean is this. Again just in my opinion but "English Celtic Punk" already gives fair coverage to their Irish-ness. Hearing "English Celtic Punk" *already* tells you the facts : English band from England with Irish music and Irish elements! Changing it does not improve the article and once again in my own opinion would be not accurate here. I am not Irish or British but I am familiar with Wikipedia enough to be happy just giving my two cents. :-) Thanks SamHeele (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi there SamHeele, thanks for joining in the discussion. Respectfully, it is 'opinion' that I am trying to avoid hehe - easier said than done I know! Also, you write 'yes they had some eventual ""full"" Irish members but the starting members were all born in England. Most important bit.' - This is not true (Cait wasn't born in the UK and yet is described as 'Irish') and your argument doesn't take into consideration all of my points, or the complexities of 'self identification', (Adam Clayton from U2 is described as 'an English-born Irish musician') but the main points being that Shane now identifies as Irish and the interview used to base the 'English' label on is when all the Irish born people had left. Socratically we cannot have 'one is allowed to be Irish (Cait as described on her wiki) and the other isn't (Shane)' - although someone has edited the BOTH recently I believe, perhaps as a result of this convo.

But even so, If Cait is allowed to be called Irish despite being born Nigeria, then how can their nationality OR heritage be used as a factual reason to not include the word 'Irish' in the bands definition? Especially when bands like U2 have two have two UK born musicians in it and are defined as an 'Irish Rock Band' - who gets to dictate 'place' and 'identity' on such subjective and personal issues? Had U2 been described as an 'Irish and British Rock Band' or 'Anglo - Irish' how would that factual label be anything other than reasoned? Both would be fair, although I suppose 'Anglo-Irish' would be preferable, even for the Pogues.

You also write 'When the article says they are "English" I think you (User:Glaaaastonbury88) are thinking this diminishes the Irish aspect. It doesn't!' But this is emotive and subjective - I could thus argue the reverse that I feel (as do many if the papers are to believed https://www.irishpost.com/news/the-pogues-controversially-branded-english-rather-than-irish-on-wikipedia-189680) the opposite and thus use that as evidence, but that is still opinion.

Your next point is very hard to prove. I have had a quick look at some other bands, but it would be good for you to provide evidence that 'most Celtic Punk bands call themselves English.' as otherwise again this is just opinion. Thanks again and best regards!

UPDATE- I did some research - here are some examples of 'Celtic Punk' bands describing themselves using two nationalities, or using Irish despite not being from or in Ireland - or originating there but still using dual definitions:

'The Prodigals is an American Irish punk band that started in 1997'

'Mr. Irish Bastard is an Irish folk punk band from Münster, Germany.'

'The Mahones are a Canadian Irish punk band, formed on St. Patrick's Day in 1990, in Kingston, Ont..'

'Flogging Molly is an Irish–American seven-piece Celtic punk band'

So if they can use dual definitions (In that of Irish-American, despite having no members born in Ireland, or even the 'Irish Punk band from Germany...)- why can't the Pogues who had two Irish born people in it and two who have Irish heritage do the same in that of 'Anglo-Irish' or 'English-Irish'? Thanks. Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 17:30, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi SamHeele — I see you're a new user and I'm aware you mention being "new to the debate", but as the only other editor active in this discussion I was wondering if you were interested in weighing in on our 'compromised' phrasing (see below) for the article? No worries if not. Thanks. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 16:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

"English" may be the simplest and absolutely not most correct way to describe The Pogues. What is your basis for this argument? The world is not simple. Intelligent, heartfelt music like The Pogues' is not simple, and does not grow out of a petri dish of simplicity either.

how Shane views his own makeup is irrelevant honestly (in my opinion)

How people view themselves is very important. To deny someone their cultural identity is cultural genocide.

English is simple the most accurate way to describe the band's makeup and their history IMO

To describe the Irish diaspora as english because it's simpler and easier does not make it accurate in anyway. It's lazy cultural colonialist gaslighting at best. It's racist. Some of the band is english, obviously. To call it Irish would be incorrect. To call it english misses out on the whole point of The Pogues, and is equally incorrect. Despite what an english band member said when he felt like he owned it for a minute. Punk Gem (talk) 07:53, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply Glaaaastonbury88, and apologies again for the delay in responding!

You've raised some good points. The self-identification of MacGowan in particular, I think, is particularly important. Having considered your reply, and the general points and counterpoints throughout the discussion here and elsewhere, I propose we make a change.

First and foremost, I think it's important that we acknowledge the facts that contribute to the difference in labelling and in opinion — simply using "Anglo-Irish" alone, I feel, doesn't give due weight to what's evidently a rather contentious matter. Normally, you might expect to see something along the lines of "The Pogues were a Celtic punk band variously described as English or Anglo-Irish"; with this, the reader is made aware of the contentious issue of the labelling of the band's ethnicity. However, I don't feel like this wording is particularly elegant.

How about, simply, "The Pogues were an English or Anglo-Irish^{[nb 1]} Celtic punk band" — with the note modified to make it clear it's providing references opposing the "Irish" label alone, and not "Anglo-Irish"?

I think this labelling:

1. acknowledges what I still consider to be reliable evidence the band objected to the "Irish" description alone and often referred to themselves as "English", and

2. acknowledges the usage of the "Anglo-Irish" label and accurately reflects the English-Irish membership of the band.

Eager to hear your thoughts! GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 15:46, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello again GhostOfNoMeme! Yes...this self identification thing is tricky and I suppose my main point is that if vast swathes of Americans can identify as Irish (many of which have never even visited Ireland and are often only related to the nation via great, great great grand parents, then why can't the Pogues. By the way, I do not use this contrast pejoratively or mean any offence to our American cousins, it is merely a psycho-social observation that I used socractically, whilst understanding the importance of identity and respecting their wishes to do so.

As for your proposed changes - I think that is a fair move toward compromise, but it is also still slightly problematic having looked at the term 'Anglo-Irish' as it seems to be a definition of 'Anglican-Irish' or one that might be used to describe Protestants in the Republic or Irish people in the North. And Shane is from a Catholic family, so that might not be accurate for his identity either. There may be confusion about 'Anglo-Irish' in that regard as it doesn't seem to simply mean 'half Irish and half English' if you see what I mean?

Thus I also wonder though in good faith (having partially conceded to your proposal though I see this as healthy progress honestly) and having thought long and hard (as we both have I think) on this issue - I wonder what you might think of the band description being thus: 'The Pogues were a London - Irish Celtic Punk band made up of English and Irish musicians'...but perhaps this is too messy.

The reason for this (and I might be pushing my luck haha) is that it brings them back to their London roots which are undeniable and the Irish identity within, but also creates a new road around the 'purely nationalistic' issue of identity of a 'band' and instead describes the musicians. Thanks Ghost all the best! Look forward to the next instalment haha.

P.S - Phil Chevron also identifies here as both Irish and Catholic, '‘I am a gay, Irish, Catholic, alcoholic, Pogue' so 'Anglo-Irish' still might not be as suitable as even I first thought? Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 16:18, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply — I believe there is a significant distinction to be made between 'Anglo-Irish' as an ethnic group to which a person might belong, e.g. Phil Chevron, and 'Anglo-Irish' as a description for an entity (e.g. a company, a group, a band, and so on). Keep in mind we're still, at the end of the day, searching for a fitting description of a band; we're not looking to find a term that accurately and perfectly describes the ethnicity of all its members. As elsewhere on Wikipedia, 'Anglo-Irish' here doesn't refer to the Anglo-Irish ethnic group, but is the simple and preferred compound over 'English-Irish' or 'English and Irish'.

We could of course instead use 'English-Irish', but in my opinion seeing "English or English-Irish" is liable to invite more confusion than 'Anglo-Irish', not less. I also think your suggestion of "The Pogues were a London - Irish Celtic Punk band made up of English and Irish musicians" is certainly descriptive, but unfortunately probably too long (it might be more fitting for, say, the biography of a person where a particular clarity is called for).

My intention with keeping 'English' in the description (as in The Pogues are an English or Anglo-Irish ...) is to make it clear to the reader that this is a contentious issue and the band's identity is not clear-cut — it also prompts the reader to view the accompanying note (which contains references to the use of 'Anglo-Irish' to describe the band, as well as the other labels).

I still think, considering other options, English or Anglo-Irish is the best descriptor. It's: short, succinct, gives reference to the note, highlights the ongoing contentiousness of the matter clearly to the reader, and gives fair coverage to the composition of the band (again, being an England-founded band by English people, one of whom has Irish parents and identifies as Irish). Any other label, I believe, risks either being needlessly wordy, confusing the reader or obscuring the issue. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 14:06, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi GhostOfNoMeme - Interesting, I would say 'English - Irish' would be less confusing personally, mainly because even though you point out the 'Anglo-Irish' differences, I think it over complicates the latter to essentially say the same thing using older language. That said, your explanation makes sense in terms of not describing 'ethnicity'. I did see this band (https://www.midnightskyracer.com/bio) use 'Anglo - Irish' but I believe it isn't common vernacular and I could argue that as you say, this 'contentious' issue will go on, whereas I would imagine (sorry this is opinion which is worthless really) that 'English - Irish' would be less contentious and removes the 'or' which suggests confusion to me rather than contention. But I cannot prove this without some sort of poll to prove my 'thoughts and feelings' correct haha.

But look, I don't think there is much more room to manoeuvre and since the two things do have essentially share the same meaning - albeit with subtle nuance as you point out, I think I have to concede to 'Anglo - Irish' with at least the knowledge that the page will now acknowledge the Irish element of the group. So what happens now? Cheers Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 15:14, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

The thing is, it isn't "older language" per se. It's usually the preferred compound word over "English-Irish" (except when it comes to individuals). It's also simply a far more common label in general: see this Google Ngram for comparison of modern usage. I think it's exceedingly unlikely confusion will arise here — the chances of anybody misinterpreting a modern punk band as belonging to a 19th/20th century Anglican social class in Ireland is probably exceedingly small.

While "English-Irish" is more succinct, it essentially sidesteps the issue altogether; if you search for the Pogues, you're more likely to see "English" or "Anglo-Irish" in reference to them (earlier in the discussion, a user provided some news articles showing use of the latter).

I'll make the change, although I of course invite earlier editors to weigh in. There is always the possibility of using a different label and instead having a section on the 'controversy', but I think this is undue weight to what, realistically, is of relatively minor relevance to the band's history overall. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 16:07, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to take out references to nationality altogether and say something like 'a London-based Celtic-punk-rock band'. Assigning nationality to a band such as the Pogues is difficult in view of the mixed heritages and changing lineups, and obviously any description will bring counter-arguments and controversy. I think London-based is fairly uncontroversial and songs like "Dark Streets of London", "London Girl" and "Lullaby of London" illustrate that there is some sort of self-identification as being from there or based there. Mtmoore321 (talk) 21:58, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree that London formed/based explains the history and reality of the band while avoiding the political/national/racist offensive minefield of englishness. I find it quite elegant. Punk Gem (talk) 07:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

GhostOfNoMeme Fair enough. Yes, I think further debate is fine, but all of the above should be taken into consideration, of which I think we have provided a fair amount of evidence, logic and reason that has led to where we are now. Cheers Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 18:07, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

It’s important to remember that, excepting the United States, birthplace does not equal citizenship. Shane Macgowan was born to Irish parents. This makes him an Irish citizen, does it not? I’ve read he has a passport from Ireland as well. Cromcruiach (talk) 08:10, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

References

This article is in the news

The Pogues controversially branded ENGLISH rather than Irish on Wikipedia--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:59, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Another article that reads 'Website states claim to Pogues’ nationality that will cause a lot of debate' [1] Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 06:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Different song sample?

The current song sample is a cover of another band. It is hardly representative of the band. I have no audio skills here but would someone who does please consider "Fairytale of New York" or "If I Should Fall from Grace with God"? Ifnord (talk) 01:03, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Good point.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)