Talk:Bowline

Early discussion

In the picture of the lighhtning method, I believe the working end would come out on the outside of the loop, wouldn't it? I think the working end needs to continue in the arc, working through that bight back towards the crossing turn, before the two ends are pulled. I use this method of tying the knot all the time and find its only fault is that it can be easy to have the working end come out on the outside of the loop.

Yes, the sheet bend is actually the same knot. take the working end of the line that hitches around the bight of the other line, then take the standing part of the bight's line. Hold the two together as if they were one line making a loop, and you'll see how they're identical.

Greg

Regarding the lightning method: I had a piece of string lying around and tried it. The method results in a regular bowline (loose end inside) not the Dutch Bowline type (loose end outside).

--Netizen 10:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

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Both Hervey Smith (Arts of the Sailor, Marlinspike Sailor) and Clifford Ashley (The Book of knots) assert that the tail of the bowline should be tied on inside. In testing the sheet bend (closely related in form) Ashley found that the reversed knot was half as a secure as the proper knot.

The comment that the rope will break before the knot is true for all knots. The important question is by how much will a given knot weaken a rope? The overhand knot is among the worst, and is accepted to weaken a line by ~50%. Many a seamstress will break her thread instead of reaching for the scissors - just by tying an overhand knot where she wants the thread to break and tugging.

Knots weaken rope by compressing/crushing the fibers. The bowline does not draw up as tightly as the overhand (one of the reasons that it is easier to untie). It weakens the rope to about 70% of its original strength.

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1 -- So what is this magic one-handed method of tying a bowline that is so superior to the traditional bunny?

2 -- Wouldn't it be better, i.e., more informative, if the bowline on a bight were discussed and described in the same article? Ortolan88

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Hi, Satsun. Two carriage returns makes a paragraph. The <break> thing just makes a line break.

You don't have to put the ? mark next to unwritten articles, wiki already distinguishes between existing and nonexistent arguments. Ortolan88

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Hi Ortolan88:

Point 1. I hope to provide pictures for tying each knot, including the bowline. That way I can keep the word descriptions succinct. I'm only on phase one of this project so I'll defer the instruction until phase two.

Point 2. I agree that the connection between the two knots should be made for the user. A word or two why there is a connection and a link is adequate. To fully describe another knot under the name of the first knot will lead to duplication. I feel this approach could lead to confusion, and missing/over-looking information for our users.

I am only now starting to settle in on a format for the articles. I appreciate that you have been patient. I agree the content can be improve. I am making another sweep through the articles improving the content. There will be hundreds of insites by you and others that will be added.

In a later round I'll add the tying pictures. This is a huge job! At 300+ knots it approaches in quality the typical knot books in print.

Thanks about the 'two returns' = paragraph. I've start to use 'break's as you suggest.

I've started to master the link thing. Got a few wrong earlier.

Got to go sweep some more.

Satsun, Friday, June 21, 2002

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Just a small note:

If my cub scouts tied the bowline as shown on the picture, I would correct them and help them redo it with the end coming out on the outside, and not inside the loop. Frode H

Hi Frode H,

You can tie it both ways, and it's correct - depending where later will be more interference. When sailing smaler boats you use this knot usually for connecting the sheet on the clew - and there this knot is beaten around - better to have the end on the inside, otherwise the end might "pushed" into the knot and so slowly losened (and sometimes detached).

The one thing there the picture _is_ questionable: the end is much to short and makes the knot very unsecure. --Hella (gut Pfad, I've been a scout leader, too)

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What does 'Releasing: Non-jamming' and 'Efficiency: 60-75%' mean? I have no what information these sections are trying to impart. --dcf 17:30, 2004 Jun 20 (UTC)

Releasing means how difficult it is to untie the knot after load. If I understod it correctly, efficiency is about how effective the knot is compared to a not knotted rope (here you'd probably compare a naturaly worked in loop created by the rope maker whith the Bowline). And yes, it might be a good idea to have an explanation somewhere. Maybe a knotting native speaker will do so? --Hella 08:01, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC), who is at least not a native speaker

Main Line??

Commonly used in sailing small craft to secure the top of the main sheet to the main line. I have been sailing since I was 5 years old and never heard of the main line! If you are going to tie top (?) the main sheet anywhere it could be on to the boom. (Note for non sailors the main sheet is a rope controlling the mainsail).

Suggestions: A bowline is commonly used to bend a halyard on to the head of a sail, or may may be used to bend jib sheets to the clew of the jib. Billlion 22:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Lightning Method

Could you explain the lightning method in more detail please? The link to slip knot turns out to be not really helpful - what sort of slip knot? vignaux 01:24, 2004 Dec 9 (UTC)

Bowline step-by-step (lightning method)

How's this? If you can find a good place for it in the article, feel free to add it somewhere. - sik0fewl 07:19, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I just came by this site. I am Ben Walker, the inventer of the Jedi Bowline. This very fun bowline has been re-named the "Benjai Bowline", because of Star Wars movie copyrights and my name is not Jed. I taught this method to thousands of Boy Scouts at Camp Chawanakee and at Boy Scout Academy. It is only fast (under one second!) if the hands are placed correctly. I have a video clip that I will try to make available. Note that the end of the rope can be on the outside or inside, but for very good reasons it is prefered on the outside because of the slipperiness of modern line materials. I hope to contribute more as I learn to use Wikipedia.

So the way shown at the top of the article is the less secure way to do a bowline? - sik0fewl 02:07, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I came to this article to insert the slip knot method in case it wasn't mentioned. I want to note, though, that you _discovered_ what you term the "Jedi" method, you didn't _invent_ it. It has been known to my family for many years (20?) through a ranching family (the Klump family of east Arizona and west New Mexico) that has been using it for far longer, I'd say at least 50 years. And my guess is they probably didn't "invent" it either. Tying the bowline with a slip knot is probably a very old way of doing it, definitely better than all that bunny nonsense. But, yes it is very fast and it does a great job. Note that you can change the results based on how you tie the slip knot (the two ways of tying the slip knot are mirror images of each other). JeffryJohnston (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the knot at the top of the main bowline article, end on the inside, is less secure. Although the rope's breaking strength may possibly be reduced by the tighter bends of the Benjai Bowline (with the end on the outside). I must find the time to get in on this Wikipedia stuff, and write more. Try this experiment for yourself. Tie the bowline with the end on inside and also on the outside. Then simulate ocean wave action, tugging up and down on the bowline's bunny tree. The end of the bowline on the inside will untie itself almost magically. A tight overhand pre-tied on the end of the line is one way to "lock" a bowline to prevent this. There are several other more secure ways to lock a bowline, but this one can be done before you spend the one second require to tie a Benjai Bowline. It's all about hand placement, ease of learning, and spectacular fun. -Ben Walker

How did you come up with this method? To me it looks like you noticed that the bowline can be untied by loosening it and "un-capsizing" it back into the slipknot form, and thought "hey I could just tie the slipknot and capsize that into a bowline." The fact that the bowline can become a slipknot when it becomes mostly untied is one of the things that draws complaints from its detractors, although that will never happen if the knot is kept under even a tiny load and/or tied with rope that isn't particularly slippery.

The diagrams are incredibly confusing though. I think it would be better to stick to photographs on a plain background, and to show the knots tied in the hand as well as alone against the background. But since I'm not doing the work I guess that's just an opinion, and everyone has those. :) Joseph N Hall 07:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Safety risks of Jedi / Benjai?

After reading the assertion that the new method of tying the knot makes a more secure knot, it seems to me that a knot with different properties should be described as a different knot, not just a different way of tying the bowline.

I suspect that the new knot may have some unexpected / undiscovered problems when compared to the classic, well-understood knot that has been used for centures.

I am concerned that innocent people could look for the well-regarded "bowline," inadvertently use the new knot instead, and become injured in the process.

I am concerned that this article is written by "fans" of the "cool new Jedi knot" and does not present NPOV.

There are only two types of bowlines: end-on-the-inside and end-on-the-outside. See the discussion above. Both methods for tying the bowline (bunny and "Jedi") can lead to both types, depending on the direction in which you feed the free end. Once the knot is tied, it is impossible to tell whether you used a bunny or Jedi method.

In fact it is easy to see that the Jedi method is equivalent to the bunny method. In "bunny language", the Jedi method works as follows: "Pull the tree down the hole, take the bunny around it, then pull the tree back out of the hole". This is the same as if the bunny had come out of the hole, gone around the tree, then back down the hole. It's not really a different method at all! My only slight criticism of the Jedi method is that it's more difficult to see whether the result will be end-on-the-inside or end-on-the-outside. Mtford 09:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Top diagram

Is it just me or is the top diagram, Image:Bowline.gif, incorrect? The initial loop looks to me the wrong way round, which results in the full knot simplifying to just an overhand knot. BigBlueFish 10:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes the initial loop is the wrong way, the lead line needs to be underneath, not over. or the 'rabbit' needs to come out of the hole the other way.

Yikes!! I have replaced that diagram with a photo of a Bowline. It is a more than a little scary that other diagram apparently sat up there for more than six months—good job spotting it Bigbluefish... I'll need to read up on image deletion policy, but my vote would be for Image:Bowline.gif to be erased forever. :) --Dfred 01:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Safety issues

It would be good to mention some problems with the bowline. It is a very good knot that has many uses but is not without problems. Personally, I wouldn't use it in a situation where if it untied someone would get hurt or killed. I think it's main feature is that it can carry a heavy load without binding. We should at least mention that a stopper knot is recommended if safety is a concern. --Nascheme 06:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a description below the step-by-step image stating that an Esklmo Bowline is what would result if the knot were started with the bitter end of the rope on the bottom. The first image in the step-by-step, however, shows the bitter end on the bottom. Either the assertion or the image must be wrong?

Also, in that same section, the resulting (Eskimo) bowline is described as inferior, potentially dangerous. Yet the article for the Eskimo bowline contradicts this assertion, saying that it is in fact more secure. Some other knot sites around the web agree with the contradiction.

So, folks who know knots - what's really going on here with the Eskimo Bowline and Safety? -- lagasek 21:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

--- original text from section 'Tying' "There is a potential with beginners to tie what is known as an Eskimo bowline. This faulty knot stems from an incorrect first step while tying..."

1. The Eskimo bowline is a secure knot and the main text in the section headed 'Tying' is in error claiming it is 'faulty'. 2. The tying method for an Eskimo bowline and a normal bowline do not resemble each other. A beginner cannot tie the other knot by mistake. 3. A wrongly tied bowline as per the section headed 'Tying' may resemble, superficially, an Eskimo bowline, but is something quite inferior.

I have edited thus: There is a potential with beginners to wrongly tie the bowline. This faulty knot stems from an incorrect first step while tying... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dadnut (talk • contribs) 19:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

other meaning

there's another meaning besides the knot. A ship is said to be on a taut bowline when the bowlines on the leeches of the sail are hauled as taut as possible for sailing near the wind. With everything stretched as flat as possible for close-hauled sailing. (Kemp dictionary of yachting) So we should at some point write a page for this, and add a disambig link at the top of this article. -- Akb4 09:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Below?

It says "Used by climbers - though less popular now than it once was - see below." But what "below", exactly, is it referring to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.231.59.254 (talk) 19:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Inside vs. outside bowline and security

For reference:

• 
  Inside bowline (#1010)
• 
  Outside bowline (#1034 1/2)
  (yes, 1/2!)

I moved this statement regarding the relative security of the inside and outside bowline here for discussion:

"A variant with the 'rabbit' running the other way [i.e. an inside bowline] is occasionally preferred, but is much less secure with a shifting load:"

There seems to be a long running lack of consensus in knotting references about which one of these knots is generally preferred security-wise. Ashley refers to the outside bowline as "distinctly inferior" to the inside bowline. However there are also sources (don't have them handy at the moment) indicating that the Dutch Navy (at some unspecified point in history) mandated the outside variant be used, thus leading to one of its names in English as the "Dutch Marine Bowline". The reasons usually given for each preference seem to focus on the possibility of capsizing the knot if the bight portion of the knot is snagged. The outside variant seems vulnerable if being dragged across edges or other objects, while the inside variant would be more likely to have the loop/encircled object be the source of snagging. (perhaps justifying the statement above regarding shifting loads...) In any case, some references need to be cited on this topic, even if they are in disagreement with each other. --Dfred (talk) 16:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Naming, handedness, other variants, mergers, etc.

Since we're already delving into the details... Regarding the naming and organization of all the "bowliform" knots (if I may use such a word :), there are actually 16 distinct simple loop knots with a sheet bend-like structure. Accounting for chirality (handedness) there are 8 remaining forms. Each one those has an inside and outside form, leaving 4 more basic forms. Of the remaining 4, only 2 have desirable/useful characteristics for practical use. (ref. Turner and van de Griend, History and Science of Knots, p. 125-129.) These remaining two forms are the bowline which has 4 variations (2x handedness, 2x inside/outside) and the Eskimo bowline which also has these same four combinations. Currently the outside bowline has a separate article, Cowboy bowline, but it may make sense to merge with this article. Comments welcome...

And, incidentally, regarding handedness and naming: Ashley confused the issue by calling his knot "#1034 1/2" the "Left-handed bowline" -- which is why I've avoided using his name in this discussion. I suppose it's possible he may have been using left-handed more in the sense of "wrong handed" than in a topological sense.

This information should eventually make its way into the article. --Dfred (talk) 16:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

One-handed method

Can't believe I've only seen one passing mention of this on the discussion page; it was one of the primary methods taught in my troop when I was growing up, and I'd probably still be struggling with the knot if not for it.

While I don't have any diagrams prepped or anything for it, the method is relatively simple:

1. Wrap the rope around your back with the free end in your right hand and the rest of the line in your left, with the left arm extended a bit.
2. Put your right wrist on top of the line in your left hand, and roll your right hand under and into the loop formed around your waist. Right palm should be upward when finished this step
3. Slip the end in your right hand under the line in your left (keep right hand above the line)
4. Pull the end in your right hand through the loop formed about your right wrist

67.188.137.241 (talk) 21:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yosemite Bowline

Per user comment I removed most of this text and photo pending editing by someone with more expertise. Gerardw (talk) 03:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

References

77% effeciency?

This seems rather high. Most of the references I am familiar with put the efficiency of a bowline around 50-60%. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.41.156.201 (talk) 16:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Bowline, tied on the bight

Back when I was in the Navy, in '72, a friend of mine taught me how to tie a bowline while somebody else was holding both ends of the rope. I'm not talking about the knot known as a bowline on the bight, I'm talking about a real bowline. And, once you learn the trick, it's easier than the regular method and about as fast. I don't have any illustrations, and I'm not an artist. If I can get some drawings done, or small enough images I'll add it. Just thought I'd mention it here first, in case anybody else has questions, comments or images to offer.JDZeff (talk) 20:23, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Regular bowline can not be tied on the bight. Some variations can. Selkänahka (talk) 03:05, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Khufu Ship

In Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World p20, Lionel Casson states that the sheets are not bow lines, as in not ropes used to hold a square sail into position. Casson doesn't say anything about the knots. I'm removing the text about the use of bowlines on the Khufu Ship being unproven. Vagary (talk) 23:41, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Still whinging about images

Looking at the set of rabbit pictures, I now understand why I was confused. The first image shows a little tail if rope above. This is the standing rope- the rope firmly attached to the bitter end, or stanchion. The bight leads off the page where it appears to contiue. So which of the two is Mister Rabbit. Better to recrop the image or use a new one. I start the poem with- Loop the rope over itself and let it drop away. Mr Rabbbit comes forward out of the hole, goes round the standing tree and hopped back down his hole --ClemRutter (talk) 17:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it is quite unclear what the standing end is in those images. Made some hopefully better diagrams. It has the working end in a different color, also some kind of arrow-ish texture pointing in the direction of the working end, in the hope that this helps a bit. Buz11 (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Bad first sentence

There is no good reason to use the word "eye" (in quotation marks, or not) in the first sentence.

There is every good reason to just say clearly what is meant. There is no advantage to using a metaphor when direct language could be much clearer.50.205.142.50 (talk) 15:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

agree. replaced with loop. Cobanyastigi (talk) 06:26, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Ontario Bowline

The Ontario Bowline is a secure and useful loop knot. Whereas most Bowline loops can spill, drift, and gradually come undone as tension is repeatedly relieved or the line jiggled, the Ontario Bowline traps the working end and resists coming apart. I use this loop knot on my sailboat for joining my main sheet to the becket block shackled to the boom. I tie it in spring and untie it in fall. It is subject to large impulsive forces (from wind gusts and jibing), steady loads (when close-hauled) as well as slackness (when tacking or not sailing), yet the knot remains unchanged and dependable throughout the sailing season.

The Yosemite Bowline serves the same purpose as the Ontario, but the Yosemite has more turns and mass, presenting a possible danger as it swings violently just inches above my head.

The Ontario Bowline can be found in The Knot Book, by Geoffrey Budworth, 1985, Sterling Publishing, p. 106 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dadnut (talk • contribs) 20:42, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Jamming?

The article states the knot is jamming. But it also tells it is easy to untie. This needs explanation. Selkänahka (talk) 03:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

That caught my eye; "jamming" is incorrect per experience and . Will correct. WhyTanFox (talk) 16:57, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

References