Talk:Cimbalom

Photo

Now the cimbalom page needs a good photo of a folk Cimbal, Tsymbaly or Ṭambal!! - Bandurist? - Anyone?? Page also needs a good photo of a second concert instrument with legs. I'll take one of mine soon. It is being restrung next week after a re-restoration Jeffreyholsen (talk) 05:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

the photo is nice but to me it is more a small folk hammer dulcimer. What it need iare phts of the concert instrument and some diagrams. I have them. I will try o scan them and make them intio illustrations. Bandurist (talk) 03:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I did succeed in getting a clear photo of a concert cimbalom which I took at the recent CWA congress up on this page. It is a great top view photo. (BTW, I am a player of this instrument; having first encountered it years ago in a gypsy / variety band I played in at a restaurant. I'm also a classically trained bassist with a music degree.) Diagrams and an additional photo showing the legs, case and player would be great!! The picture at the cimbalom page top is of an older style folk cimbalom or is a small tsimbaly (I'm not sure which) so it is fine for the page (as it is general in scope) but it does not suffice to give a clear sense of the concert version which should definitely be pictured where the word "cimbalom" is mentioned! It is important that there be no confusion of the concert cimbalom with other instruments - even somewhat closely related ones like the Tsimbalys from the Chernihiv factory. The concert cimbalom has too important a history in music to be left to ambiguity here. We need to place it in it's evolutionary and cultural context. I believe the instruments of this family can be placed on one page but the page needs to thoroughly address them all. Or, each member instrument could have it's own page with it's specific information. I really consider the article as it is to be a very bare-bones beginning and skeleton for something much more authoritative and comprehensive in the future!Jeffreyholsen (talk) 23:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I have some phptos and videos. I used to play and still have 2 instruments. Bandurist (talk) 01:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

it seems to me that cimbalom and tsymbaly are both the same thing and the information should be combined into a single article. i don't know what the best title for the article is, though.   — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 10:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

They are similar and related instruments but however, are not the same. The Cymbalom is the term used for the Hungarian concert hammer dulcimer developed in the 19th century by Schunda.

The term Tsymbaly is used for specifically for folk hammer dulcimers in Ukraine and Belarus. The construction of these instruments, range, repertoire and playing techniques differ substantially fro the concert Cymbalom and warrant separate articles. Bandurist (talk) 16:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

both articles use almost the exact same list of links to foreign-language wikis. Do you have some source that describes the differences as greater than just regional variations on the same folk instrument theme? all sorts of bagpipes are in the same article, for example.   — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 20:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have about 20 books on the subject of the Ukrainian tsymbaly. I will gradually put materials about them up. I have been a judge at the Ukrainian Folk instruments international music competition held in Kharkiv every 3 years. I have all the materials - just having the time is the problem. Bandurist (talk) 22:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Chris, The concert cimbalom is precisely the very distinct instrument which composers used in the scores listed in the "cimbalom" article's compositions section (and there are more examples yet to be listed). As such it requires an article (it has them in the Groves encyclopedia and dictionary of musical instruments for example). I hope to have an article here that is approaching the treatment the instrument deserves and gets in the Groves. I will be creating citations for the composers mentioned (over time with the help of a music librarian). Be assured: the compositions listed all DO include the concert cimbalom in the score. It would be a mistake and obfuscation to merge this instrument and call it Tsymbaly which can also be discussed here as related but which merits it's own page or section. Please remove consideration for merger/change of this article and retain the title "Cimbalom" Jeffreyholsen (talk) 17:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they should be merged. They are as different as a ukulele and a classical guitar. One is a folk instrument with varying sizes/strings, the other is a fairly standardized concert instrument with a completely different repertoire.Dan Carkner (talk) 23:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Most common spelling

If, as this article current states, "cimbalom" is the most common spelling, why is the article titled "Cymbalum"? — Jeff Q 18:12, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the above statement this article should be moved to "Cimbalom"

I have always known this instrument as a "zimbalon". According to the Webster's Random House Unabridged Dictionary, "zimbalon" is just another spelling variant, with the main entry under "cymbalom". Etymology is from Hungarian "cimbalon", derived from Latin "cymbalum". So "Cymbalum" would seem to be the original form.

Speaking as a player of this instrument, I too must agree that the article should be moved to "cimbalom," which is the correct Hungarian spelling. One could also argue for "ţambal" or any of the other versions from the languages of the countries where the instrument developed. Note that the pronunciation is not like "cymbal" in English, but rather more like /tsimbalom/, which can be seen in the other variations of the name. -- Moosenose 05:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I fully support such a move to cimbalom. If I weren't so dang lazy I'd do it myself. (Hint: if you do move it, be sure to take care of all the pages which link to this article.) ==ILike2BeAnonymous 06:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I had that exact same thought when reading this article--if "cimbalom" is the most common and correct name, why is the article called "cymbalum"? Strongly support move! K. Lástocska 03:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

...and it has been moved. Thanx! K. Lástocska 05:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I have this instrument on my keyboard. It sounds awesome! :-) --212.247.27.92 18:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyone know of where a person can find a cymbalum? I have found low end dulcimers for $300.00 but have yet to find a cymbalum for sale.

"In Czechoslovakia" ??

There are several good cimbalom makers in the Czech republic. Ask on the CWA web page. Jeffreyholsen (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)Jeff Holsen

There should be a suitable photo of a concert cimbalom for this page in addition to the photo currently up. Jeffreyholsen (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)Jeff Holsen

If there is still a question; Tsymbaly and Cimbalom are closely related in Belarus and Ukraine but are not always the same instrument. Sometimes the word Tsimbaly is applied to instruments of Schunda's and his successors' concert design and construction and sometimes it designates the local designs. If the article wishes to discuss the instrument that is based on and continues from the design of Jozsepf V. Schunda, and for which the cited composers wrote, then the instrument in question is generally spelled "Cimbalom". This is the spelling most commonly seen in the scores of the major composers mentioned. Tsymbaly can certainly be discussed as a variant/parallel instrument with a distinct tradition of it's own either within the cimbalom page or on it's own page (a separate page with a link may ultimately do both instruments more justice). Schunda's design which was improved by Bohak and others to follow is the closest to concert standardization a candidate from this instrument family has yet achieved. The concert cimbalom may be worthy of having it's own article heading or this page must afford it the presence it deserves. BTW, I like the other cimbaloms and dulcimers too :) Jeffreyholsen (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)Jeff Holsen

The Cimbalom is taught in the Conservatories in Ukraine and is pushing out the traditional folk instrument in Ukraine. there is some who are against this. In belarus the Cymbalom is not used at all, and all they use is the folk variety. The Belarus have an amazing technique using small hammers and holding them differently. There is a lot of hand work because there are no damper erdals. The range is smaller and the repertoire quite different because it does not have he lower two octaves of strings as on the Schunda. Bandurist (talk) 22:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have witnessed this stunning technique in action at CWA last fall and also investigated and photographed the sticks. I certainly hope this way of playing continues! Jeffreyholsen (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)Jeff Holsen

I am a great supporter of the Belarusans. Amazing playing, however when they compete against 20 other guys on the concert instruments, the tendency of most judges is to award those that play the large concert cimbalom. They don't see the minute techniques that the Belarusans use. Basically the Concert Cymbalom is the one used in conservatories in Ukraine and the small instrument is disappearing. This is a shame because few can afford a concert cimalom and it is very difficult to transport and assemble etc. Bandurist (talk) 03:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

//// The following contribution is an opinion from a new student of the cymbalom who happens also to be a professional editor. Do not mistake it for a scholarly addition to discussion.

The tsymbaly article is more informative for those who want an overview and history of the instrument: where it came from, how it traveled, its many varieties. As a new player of the cymbalom I was looking for an article about it to send to a friend, and found the tsymbaly article more useful. The cymbalom article focuses more on the fine details of how it is constructed and played.

Should the two be merged? I think so, because "tsymbaly" is a minority spelling and the reader could easily miss it otherwise. I suggest the tsymbaly article be edited as a subsection to be placed near the top of the cymbalom article, so that readers are able to take away a more general idea of what the instrument really is, before learning the details. Its relationship to the western hammered dulcimer should be nearer the top as well.

It would also be very cool to include sound clips of the various versions of the instrument.

For those searching for one, yes, you can get a cymbalom (or santouri, the very similar Greek version of the instrument) in the U.S. I suggest you join a dulcimer forum and network through that to discover people who are selling them. Or you can have one made and shipped to you, in the U.S. and elsewhere. Information is readily available on the Web. Nancy E. Roth, Aug. 18 2010

I returned to the page and did some work on the grammar. I attempted to minimize confusion regarding struck zithers and hammer dulcimers with a set of edits. In the rock music section, I moved lesser known groups to the bottom of the paragraph. Having written a large bulk of this article as well as providing photographs, I feel some responsibility to keep it reading easily. I appreciate the additions of new information - Particularly in the film music section. Bravo! Jeffreyholsen (talk) 07:50, 16 April 2018 (UTC) ///

Remove list of players!

Please remove the list of 'prominent' cimbalom players. This has turned into a place for every minor cimbalom player to attempt to promote his band. Honestly are there vast lists of prominent players on other musical instrument pages? As a cimbalom player myself and one who would never stoop to attempting to advertise myself on Wikipedia, I can smell the self promotion in that list a mile off... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.198.166 (talk) 06:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

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"Cymbalum"

This article currently includes: A "cymbalum" is not the same instrument as a cimbalom. A "cymbalum" is a part of a medieval instrument... However, "cymbalum" dates back to Greece-Roman antiquity. These were essentially varieties of cymbals (not resembling dulcimers in any way).
See: Article by Benjamin Jowett, M.A., Fellow of Balliol College, Oxford on pp381‑382 of
William Smith, D.C.L., LL.D.: A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, John Murray, London, 1875.
From: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Cymbalum.html
~E 74.60.29.141 (talk) 03:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

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	Mar 24, 2011 - 4:22 PM   e use by Mancini & Creature Feature ==

I started playing the John Barry soundtrack and my spouse overhearing it said that sounded like the music played on Creature Feature, which is from the soundtrack for Experiment in Terror by Henry Mancini.

He may be correct as per the post at Mar 24, 2011 - 4:22 PM in the following discussion:

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=77589&forumID=1&archive=0

You can listen for yourself for the Cimbalon. Here's the piece from Experiment in Terror:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tzBqospv9SY

Other than the fact that it was Mancini, its use in Experiment in Terror may not be as notable but its use by Creature Feature, every week, for years is quite significant. Some of the comments for the Creature Feature intro theme state that hearing the song still brings chills down their spines. Creature Feature would add a voice over of a poem or some kind of verse/monologue by the announcer. A sample of its use in Creature Feature:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0w9Ebx-wOE

FYI - The Cymbalon in John Barry's score for The Ipcress File:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Jw6_Xgszk

Anyway, suggest inclusion. Ileanadu (talk) 03:56, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

More evidence that Mancini's score for Experiment in terror used a Cimbalom:

"There is a bit of Henry Mancini’s score to Experiment in Terror, very John Barry-like in sound, particularly in its use of cimbalom. The appearance of a cimbalom in a 60s film is a sure sign that there’s espionage afoot, with its evocation of behind the iron-curtain East European machinations."

http://sparksinelectricaljelly.blogspot.com/2009/03/music-for-your-movies-1.html

Ileanadu (talk) 04:12, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

In response to the Ipcress File and espionage, Dave Grusin also used a cimbalom in the title theme of the 1975 movie, "Three Days of the Condor" starring Robert Redford. 108.203.158.37 (talk) 00:57, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Any significant differences between cymbalum & hammered dulcimer?

A comprehensive explanation of this is conspicuously lacking from both articles. I'd say it's simply regional terminology differences. These two articles could well be merged. 195.187.108.4 (talk) 18:58, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

18th century

§ Cimbalom#History includes the following:

Building on the struck chordophones common to the region, the Hungarian concert cimbalom was designed and created by V. Josef Schunda in 1874 in Budapest. The impetus to create such an elaborate instrument – a more formal "concert" cimbalom – was in part, born out of a broader effort to establish a stronger 18th-century Hungarian national identity.

The year 1874 was in the nineteenth century, not the eighteenth. I am correcting it.

--Thnidu (talk) 17:31, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Article could use a cleanup

Hi folks, over the years this article has collected a lot of stray lists and content relating to specific modern performers, possibly some of which are self-promotion by minor artists. I am thinking it needs a drastic amount of cleanup limiting the artists mentioned to those who are mentioned in connection with the instrument in secondary sources. I would also think maybe the article should be focused more on the concert cimbalom and less about folk dulcimers of various kinds.--Dan Carkner (talk) 18:20, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Cross-referencing similar/related instruments

Can we also add a section to reference related instruments - such as this section: Qanun_(instrument)#See_also? If people are okay with this suggestion, I could add it, and cross reference this page from some of the other related pages as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmkaram (talk • contribs) 18:49, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

They should be mentioned somehow. Not too long ago I cut a huge list from the article that gave lists of similar instruments in different countries as well as a section on some experimental instruments that have little to do with the cimbalom. You can see how it was in this older version. My feeling is that mentioning a few things like Hammered Dulcimers in the intro section would be enough, and in the section that explains the development of the cimbalom. But of course it's not only up to me...--Dan Carkner (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Part of my concern is that the article doesn't spend enough time saying what a cimbalom actually is (well sourced descriptions of the origin of the instrument, its usage and so on) but was just a collection of a lot of low hanging fruit like linking to other topics or mentioning random artists or schools without any sourced explanation of their significance.--Dan Carkner (talk) 20:17, 21 June 2021 (UTC)