Talk:Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu

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Former good articleDaitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 3, 2007Good article nomineeListed
September 11, 2009Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Need pictures![edit]

We are badly in need of pictures of anything remotely related to Daito-ryu. Can anyone help? Bradford44 15:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a few more, and there are probably plenty to get through GA, but there should remain outstanding a request for practice-related pictures. Bradford44 17:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA nomination imminent[edit]

Ok, I'm about ready to nominate the article - any last minute objections, or sections that are missing or need improvement, first? Bradford44 17:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here goes nothing... I'm going to submit for GA now. Even if it fails, we should get some good ideas for improvement. It could be a month or more before it gets reviewed, so don't expect quick results, though - when I put Kano Jigoro through GA it took at least 30 days before anyone looked at it (but feel free to edit the article in the meantime). Bradford44 14:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It got promoted! That was fast... Much thanks to Weston.pace for the review. Bradford44 17:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts on strengths and weaknesses[edit]

Two things come to mind as weaknesses in the article.

i) It bothers me that I have never heard of Tenshin-ryū, Senso-ryū, and Shindo-ryū as aikijujutsu systems (mentioned in the last sentence of the article).

ii) I'm wondering if Tokimune Takeda's contributions have to be restated in the Tokimune Section even though they are outlined in the main section on the art. My instinct was not to reintroduce them out of the 'boredom factor' but we had some problems with not having sections stand alone in the promotion of the judo article.

I quite like how the definition of aikijujutsu turned out in the end and having a quoted segment on 'aiki' gives the reader a good conception of what 'aiki' meant to the creators of Daito-ryu specifically. - I just thought that I'd include what I thought were the strengths of the article in addition to the weaknesses. : ) --Mateo2006 19:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Tenshin-ryu, it seems is the name that Frederic Lovret gave the kenjutsu component of his art. Lovret's primary teacher was Yonezawa of the Kodokai. This art therefore descends from Daito-ryu does it not?

Frank Lovret recieved his Hiden Mokuroku from a Kodokai teacher who basically gave out rank to people he thought was important and who he thought could help him kick start his own Daito ryu Org once he moved to the states. Tenshin ryu and Yamate ryu are not considered part of Daito ryu or even Aikijujutsu. Lovret's sword system has no connection to Daito ryu either.

Senso-ryu aikijutsu is also a modern art put together Richard Behrens of New York who may have had connections to the Kodokai as well. It is unclear on his website.

Behrens has no connection to the Kodokai a few ex students of Ted Hanulak, the current person heading and teaching Senso ryu, are in the process of gather information from Behrens. After about 15yrs they have made contact we Behrens and are waiting to get questions answered.

Shindo-ryu aikijutsu was apparentally founded by a 22 year old American who claims to have studied an equally unknown style called Hinin-ryu from a teacher named Hirihito who said the art decended from Daito-ryu.

--Mateo2006 19:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(I wrote the following immediatly prior to your last post Matt, but I'm going to post it in its original form even though you came up with some of the same answers) Some google searching has turned up some answers regarding the three "aikijutsu" schools. This link, [1] explores the issues rather well. And on this page, [2], gives the following information:
  • "Soke Yamada Minoru , senior student of Sokaku, founded a modified version of Daito-Ryu he continued to call Yamate -Ryu Aiki Jujutsu. since that is what Sokaku was calling his art when he trained Yamada Minoru."
  • "Soke Yamashita Minoru , student of Sokaku, founder of Shindo Ryu."
Elsewhere on the page, it claims that Tanomo Saigo (the adopted father of famous judoka Shiro Saigo) called his art Yamate-ryu, but later on the page it states:
  • "Sokaku Takeda usually used the term YAMATE-RYU (Mountain Hand ) to discribe his version of SAIGO-HA AIKIBUDO.but he was convinced by one of his senior students, Yoshida Kotario, to use the name DAITO-RYU ( great Eastern Style) due to the militarialistic situation prior to the expansionistic policies of pre world II war Japan."
Finally, Senso-ryu may only be a single dojo - see [3]. The most interesting thing is that no matter how many of these websites I look at (for Tenshin-ryu or Shindo-ryu), none of them have a shred of information about who founded the ryu. They just have vague statements that they teach aikijutsu, and descend from Daito-ryu. I'm going to pull the references to specific styles until someone can provide a reliable reference. Bradford44 19:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Master Behrens is very secretive about who his teachers were. He has stated many time to many people his teacher was a Tsihiro Oyama who he studied under for 27 years.[3]The problem is many people Japanese or other, have told me this is not a japanese name and no one else has ever come to me or anyone else with any information on Oyama, Hanulak states on his website that there is no connection to any Koryu. So from my own study of the history and the system there is no Daito Ryu, Kodokai or Hakko ryu connection. hope this helps.(Tenteisai 02:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC))


I think Okabayashi Sensei's Hakuho Ryu Aikibudo should be added to the Tokimune section. Okabayashi Sensei received Menkyo Kaiden from Tokimune Sensei in Ono Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu Sokakuden and Kiyojo Daigiri from Takuma Hisa. As he teaches the combine Takumakai and Tokimune Sensei's Aikibudo, should he not be added?

Auto-review[edit]

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

  • Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?]
  • Consider adding more links to the article; per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) and Wikipedia:Build the web, create links to relevant articles.[?]
  • If there is not a free use image in the top right corner of the article, please try to find and include one.[?] Logo rleaced under a CC licence. --Nate1481( t/c) 10:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.[?]
  • Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally do not start with articles ('the', 'a(n)'). For example, if there was a section called ==The Biography==, it should be changed to ==Biography==.[?] done --Nate1481( t/c) 10:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
    • Avoid misplaced formality: “in order to/for” (-> to/for), “thereupon”, “notwithstanding”, etc.
  • As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
Done. Bradford44 17:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Nate1481( t/c) 11:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA Reassessment[edit]

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I will be doing the GA Reassessment on this article as part of the GA Sweeps project. H1nkles (talk) 19:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still reading through the article but I can tell that the lead will need to be expanded. Per WP:LEAD the lead needs to be a summary of every subject within the article. For an article of this length a lead of 3 paragraphs is pretty standard. The lead in this article does not adequately cover all the subjects in the article.

In the History section there is a rather large time gap between Hoshina Masayuki (17th century) and Takeda Sokaku (19th century). The previous section of history is very rich and informative, then there is this large jump to Sokaku in the 19th century with no intervening information. Can this hole be explained? Is there more information that can be added? From a comprehensive standpoint I think there is more that can be done to fill in the gap.

I have read through the Aiki concept section and found the article very rich and well-written. The references are consistent and thorough. H1nkles (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References 11 and 13 have dead links that will need to be repaired. Otherwise the format is good and the references are credible.

Overall the article is in good shape, the lead is not long enough, there are a couple of dead links in the references, and there is a big gap in the history section that should be filled in or explained. As such I will put the article on hold for a week pending work. I will notify interested projects and editors of this hold. Please contact me on my talk page should you have questions. H1nkles (talk) 20:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see any work done on my suggestions since the review was completed. Since it has been nearly 3 weeks I am forced to finalize the assessment. I do not believe the article meets the current GA Criteria especially related to MOS compliance (Lead) and comprehensiveness (History gap). As such I will delist the article with the hope that editors will pick up the tasks and renominate when the article meets GA Criteria. H1nkles (talk) 16:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External links[edit]

We're getting to the point of toomanylinks Heroeswithmetaphors (talk) 23:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Was Daito ryu the invention of Sokaku Takeda?[edit]

The article should mention the possibility that most of the style's history was made up by Sokaku Takeda, and that the art, its syllabus etc largely was his own invention. Ellis Amdur argues for this in his book Hidden in Plain Sight. He is not the only one of this opinion, but HIPS is the only source I can mention from the top of my head. --90.129.27.34 (talk) 16:53, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An Unlikely Journey[edit]

I removed the following:

Kage Yoshimitsu travelled to Europe in the mid-15th century and met William Vorilong, a western philosopher who befriended him and learned some eastern philosophy, unarmed combat, and melee weapon fighting under his guidance.

There is no citation, the claim has no apparent relevance to the subject matter, and I seriously doubt its veracity. I'm not even sure who Kage Yoshimitsu is. The Yoshimitsu mentioned previously in the article died in 1127, long before the 15th Century.

FergusV9S (talk) 07:27, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Things not mentioned (Aikinojutsu)[edit]

1. Jujutsu (柔術) unarmed techniques; method of relying primarily on atemi, by applying direct and short movements such as : atemi-waza, nage-waza, shime-waza, kansetsu-waza. 2. Aikinojutsu (合気之術) unarmed techniques; method of replying mainly aiki (合気) concepts, by applying circular movements (taisabaki) such as aikinage: aikiage (movements of the hands directed upwards), aikisage (movements of the hands directed downwards)

The Aikijujutsu includes techniques of close combat, such as: atemi-waza (striking and kicking techniques), shime-waza (chokes, strangulation techniques), kansetsu-waza (joint locks techniques), osae-waza (grappling techniques), nage-waza (throw or takedown an opponent to the ground), aikinojutsu (throwing to the ground using Aiki), kyushuwaza ( pressure on vital points on the human body).

OMOTE WAZA - URA WAZA Techniques called Omote (表) [is the visible] are techniques taught to all students and practitioners. These techniques can be demonstrated to the public (enbutaikai). The techniques called Ura (裏) [is the hidden, the secret] are techniques taught only to advanced students and are not allowed to demonstrate to the public.

There are 5 series in Hiden mokuroku: 1. Ikkajo: composed of 30 techniques, practice standing and kneeling 2. Nikajo: composed of 30 techniques, practice standing and kneeling 3. Sankajo: composed of 30 techniques, practice standing and kneeling 4. Yonkajo: composed of 15 techniques, practiced standing 5. Gokajo: composed of 6 techniques, practiced standing, plus: 

- Tasudori ( defense techniques against multiple attackers ) 
- Emonodori ( defense techniques for precious objects ) 
- Bodori ( defense techniques from stick attacks ) 
- Juttedori ( defense techniques from jutte attacks ) 
- Tankendori ( defense techniques from knife attacks ) 
- Daitodori ( defense techniques from katana attacks ) 
- Kasadori ( defense techniques by using an umbrella )  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.62.202 (talk) 20:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Serious problem[edit]

This article has at least one serious problem (aside from some crappy writing). The top section says that the history of the art begins with Takeda Sokaku, and then the infobox, and the very next section, go on to say how ancient the art is, attributing it to people who lived many 100s of years ago. Doesn't anyone who cares about this article think that's a problem that should be fixed? I'm not an expert on this art, so I can't contribute myself. Without reading carefully it looks like a pretty good article as far as information coverage goes, it's just that I would never take it seriously given the aforementioned contradiction. Himatsu Bushi (talk) 20:42, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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