Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Baku Ibne, et al./Evidence

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Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.

When placing evidence here, please be considerate of the arbitrators and be concise. Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful.

As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff; links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=0&oldid=5584644] [1].

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.

Please make a section for your evidence and add evidence only in your own section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs, a much shorter, concise presentation is more likely to be effective. Please focus on the issues raised in the complaint and answer and on diffs which illustrate behavior which relates to the issues.

If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user.

Be aware that the Arbitrators may at times rework this page to try to make it more coherent. If you are a participant in the case or a third party, please don't try to refactor the page, let the Arbitrators do it. If you object to evidence which is inserted by other participants or third parties please cite the evidence and voice your objections within your own section of the page. It is especially important to not remove evidence presented by others. If something is put in the wrong place, please leave it for the arbitrators to move.

Evidence presented by Tabib[edit]

Considering that ArbCom has largely exposed the other violator acting behind a whole army of suckpuppets, I chose to focus on User:Rovoam's conduct. This may seem a bit long and too detailed evidence. But I still chose to make it as detailed as possible, at least initially, so that to cover all aspects of Rovoam's disruptive actions, provocations, dishonest behaviour and personal attacks.

I want to stress once again that my actions, i.e. my reverts of User:Rovoam should in no way be equalled to reverts of User:Rovoam of me and other users. If necessary I can substantiate this point in detail.

Neutral editors, please, feel free to make any clarifications, additions and/or wikiformatting to this list of evidences. If necessary for the sake of clarity and briefness, I even would not mind making this list shorter. --Tabib 13:13, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

08 Feb[edit]

  • 18:45-19:19
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: Anon User:64.136.2.254 makes a series of incessant edits (6 overall) during which he removes certain paragraphs from page (esp. mentioning Artsakh and Caucasus Albania), adds some POV and brings back the external links he deleted in his previous edit at 18:22.
    • Overall there were 7 consecutive edits by this anon in Nagorno-Karabakh page on Feb 8. Here’s the diff between page versions after his initial editions ([3])

09 Feb[edit]

10 Feb[edit]

  • 11:17
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam introduces again his POV edit identical to the one dated 09 Feb 09:08 with summary “Removing incorrect version.” ([9]).
  • 11:24
    • Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam posts his first message to talkpage arguing that “The term “separatists” is not neutral…and Nagorno-Karabakh…was part of the Soviet Azerbaijan, which does not exist now.” ([10])
  • 11:41-12:58
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Cantus makes a long series of consecutive edits with edit summary “reverting previous POV by Rovoam”. User’s edit behavior demonstrates that user is not well-informed on the subject and is confused (during this time span Cantus made 20 edits overall).

13 Feb[edit]

  • 03:48
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam introduces a POV edit (minor, at first sight) removing correct sentence that N-K is part of Azerbaijan and instead, introducing a biased sentence mentioning Stalin. ([11]).
  • 23:12
    • User talk:Cantus: User:Rovoam posts a message to Cantus objecting to his reverts, softly accusing him of violation of “the very basic principles of Wekipedia” and also softly threatening with arbitration. ([16])

14 Feb[edit]

  • 13:06
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam makes no change to the page, but edits the page simply to show in edit summary what message he meant in his previous edit summary and create a false impression that he is being treated unjustly. ([19])
  • 22:49
    • Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam responds to initial request by User:Cantus to explain his changes by repeating his arguments and for the second time threatens with arbitration stating “If you disagree with the above statements, let's bring this matter to the Arbitrator and let him decide who is right and who is wrong here...” ([20])

15 Feb[edit]

  • 10:48
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Tabib reverts User:Rovoam and puts notice in edit summary: “RV to initial version. Before making substantial changes to the page, POV questions should be solved in the discussion page.” ([22])
  • 13:12
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam reinstates his POV version and puts misleading and confusing edit summary echoing previous edit summary by User:Tabib: “Please do not change this initial version, POV questions should be solved in the discussion page” ([23]). Later this edit summary caused confusion and disputes on which version should be considered “initial” ([24] and [25])
  • 15:08
    • User talk:Cantus: User:Tabib asks User:Cantus “to prevent Rovoam's biased edits, and explain him that he should first address his claims in the relevant talkpage and he may make substantial changes to the Wikipage only after substantially addressing the issue and getting views of the other parties involved.” ([26])
  • 16:34
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam reverts to his POV version once again and puts an irrelevant, provocative and abusive edit summary: “Dear turks! Go back to Ankara. Please don't invade Europe!” ([27])
  • 16:43
    • Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam wages first personal attack against User:Tabib: “You have to stop your violent Turkish vandalism and listen what other people say about you. Otherwise, I will have no choice, but to restrict your access to this site forever.” ([28])

16 Feb[edit]

  • 00:16
    • Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Davenbelle suggests resorting to formal mediation and writes that “aggressive tactics like messing with redirects and adjusting every page that links here is not going to make the anons (yes, possibly Rovoam) many friends” ([41]-last post)
  • 05:53
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Tabib reverts User:64.136.2.254, puts edit summary “RV vandalism. If this is you Rovoam, behave openly and in a civilized manner. Erasing whole paragraphs and remove NPOV label is not correct. Refer to third party opinion by Davenbelle” (suggesting that all contentious issues should be dealt with in talkpage first) ([42])

17 Feb[edit]


18 Feb[edit]

  • 19:19
    • Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Tabib posts a message in which objects to User:Davenbelle’s removing of certain “contentious stuff”, arguing that these removals made the current (then) version false and misleading and suggesting a new page version ([52])

19 Feb[edit]

20 Feb[edit]

21 Feb[edit]

  • 08:35
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Davenbelle puts label TotallyDisputed on the page. This becomes his last edit on the page and its talkpage (after providing some links to PD maps of N-K)

23 Feb[edit]

  • 02:40
    • User:Cantus: Puts a message on his own userpage informing that he is leaving Wikipedia because “is not a reliable source of information and is a big waste of time for everybody involved.” ([57])
    • Note: however, currently User:Cantus is rather active (see, contrib. log)

24 Feb[edit]

  • 10:17

25 Feb[edit]

  • 23:40
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam introduces his previous POV edits again putting edit summary “Are we over with our talk? Going back to the editing war?” ([62]).
    • As seen below, this provokes a second revert war between him and User:Tabib

27 Feb[edit]

  • 14:09

28 Feb[edit]

  • 08:04
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: Another POV revert by User:Rovoam accompanied by deceptive and confusing edit summary “RV unilateral changes by Tabib again. No changes, please! Untill the conflict is resolved!” echoing the preceding edit summary by User:Tabib ([69])
    • Same pattern of edit summary behavior, aimed at confusing third party editors who would review the case in the future, was recorded before at 13:12, Feb 15 (see above)
  • 09:52
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Tabib reverts POV edits by User:Rovoam, puts edit summary “Stop this fraudulent actions! You yourself introduce unilateral change and then accuse me?! I am not satisfied with this version either, but I refrain from adding my edits, I simply revert to Cantus!” ([70])

01 Mar[edit]

  • 05:30
    • Caucasus Albania: User:Tabib reverts vandalism, puts edit summary “RV biased edit by Rovoam, who removed two paragraphs from the original text, edited by earlier editors (not me!). Rovoam dont spread the conflict over content of Nagorno-Karabakh to other pages!” ([79])
  • 06:37
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Tabib reverts User:Rovoam, puts edit summary “Rovoam you are getting increasingly aggressive. Stop unilateral changes! Stop vandalizing other pages, namely Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (redirect to Nagorno-Karabakh) and Caucasus Albania.” ([83])
  • 11:15
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Tabib introduces the version he supports without User:Rovoam’s consent, puts edit summary “Rovoam that's ENOUGH! I introduce the suggested version without your concent. I warn you DO NOT to violate 3RR. And be a man and behave openly. Before you already were exposed when using anon IPs” ([86])
    • This edit was the first one since 12:22, Jan 26 (single case when User:Tabib unintentionally used his IP), which contained new information since the start of the dispute with User:Rovoam from 15:53, Feb 9. Until this point in discussion User:Tabib refrained from adding his unilateral edits to page and only reverted POV editions by User:Rovoam and anons.
  • 11:25
    • Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam suddently agrees that “that Artsakh was for some time part of the Caucasian Albania”
    • Previously User:Rovoam claimed that “Karabakh was never part of Albania” ([87]) and even now he claims “What Albanians have in Artsakh? - There are no traces of their presence!” ([88])
  • 13:39
    • User talk:Geni: User:Tabib accidentally sees the spurious message and asks User:Geni to keep this message, which would be used “as an important factual evidence in future arbitration” ([97])

02 Mar[edit]

  • 00:22
    • Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh: User: 66.53.218.147 (Rovoam) wages another personal attack against User:Tabib with a message titled “Tabib (and other Turki/Azeri people) are already taking all room in Wikipedia, making it Turkipedia. He is so proud of his Turkish background that all other users are prohibeted from this resource. Does this site exist only for Turkic people? If yes I will leave forever! Because I hate all Turkish vandals!!! 00:22, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)” ([98])
  • 01:16
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:66.53.219.9 (blocked Rovoam) reverts and puts edit summary “I like this war. Let's see if by blocking each IP address you improve Wiki Statistics. I have a big list of public Proxy servers available. It's going to be fun! I may do this on other articles too!” ([100])
  • 19:53
    • Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh: User:64.136.2.254 (Rovoam) posts yet another abusive message insulting ethnic background of certain editors (“WikipediA is the free Turkish Encyclopedia, also known as Turkipedia…” ([104])
    • Initially User:Rhobite removes this post ([105]), but Rovoam quickly restores it putting a comment “Non-Turkic people are not allowed even to use a talk page. Oh! I want to be Turk!” ([106])

03 Mar[edit]

  • 05:21, 05:28, 09:18


05 Mar[edit]

07 Mar[edit]

  • 06:22
    • Caucasus Albania: User:Rovoam vandalizes Caucasus Albania page removing paragraph mentioning Artsakh, puts provocative and confusing edit summary “Removing statement about Artsakh - because it was not only part of Albania, but also Urartu. Tell the complete story - or tell nothing” ([110])
  • 06:11
    • Nagorno-Karabakh Republic: User:Rovoam reverts again and puts a deceptive and also abusive (calling me “loser”) edit summary “Vandalizm by Tabib has been removed. Correct page has been restored. Tabib you are looser!” ([111])

08 Mar[edit]

  • 07:33
    • Caucasus Albania: User:Tabib reverts edit by User:Rovoam, puts summary “RV vandalism by Rovoam (his case under investigation by ArbCom). If he can prove his baseless allegations about Urartu let him adress this issue in talkpage and not delete already proved facts” ([112])
    • Previous contentious, but still useful edits by User:Rovoam dated Mar 03 were not reverted.

09 Mar[edit]

10 Mar[edit]

  • 11:54
    • Caucasus Albania: User:Rovoam vandalizes the page again, puts provocative, irrelevant and rude edit summary (or rather, a personal message) “Thank you, Mr.TABIB HUSEYNOV. I will meet you face to face in Baku very soon, and we will discuss with you all your problems.” ([114])

11 Mar[edit]

12 Mar[edit]

13 Mar[edit]

  • 10:09
    • Caucasus Albania: Another vandalism by User:Rovoam, combined with yet another rude and provocative edit summary “Rempved changes by turkish guy Tabib Huseynov” ([118])

14 Mar[edit]

  • 22:12
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam implicitly vandalizes the page under pretext of “Providing more historucal details with reference to the sources”. ([121])
    • Rovoam removes four original paragraphs from the page content with real history narration, and puts largely irrelevant quotations from historians of antiquity, mixed with POV and addressed in talkpage ([122]; ([123]; [124]; [125] also, [126]; [127]; and [128])

15 Mar[edit]

  • 18:15
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam reverts back to his POV version, thus again removing four real content history paragraphs and puts deceptive edit summary “Tabib, why you removed the whole Karabakh history section? Do you disagree with Strabo or with Pliny the Elder? Or you just want Armenians to get out of their historical land?” ([130])
  • 19:28
    • Talk:Caucasian Albania: User:Rovoam posts a deceptive message titles “NPOV vs Azeri POV” in which “explains” his POV edits, sets forth fraudulent remarks about Strabo, Plinius Secundos, Clavdius Ptolemeus. ([132])
  • 22:54
    • Nagorno-Karabakh: User:Rovoam: introduces his POV version again, leaves deceptive message in edit summary “Tabib! Please explain why cannot I refer to historical source information which contradicts with your wrong POV?” ([133])

Evidence presented by LIGerasimova[edit]

<day1><month>[edit]

  • <timestamp1>
    • What happened.
  • <timestamp2>
    • What happened.
  • <timestamp3>
    • What happened.

<day2> <month>[edit]

  • <timestamp1>
    • What happened.
  • <timestamp2>
    • What happened.
  • <timestamp3>
    • What happened.

Request to reject Tony Sidaway from the arbitration process[edit]

Tony Sidaway is known to cooperate very well with User:Tabib. When Tabib requested 3RR to be applied to my IP, this was implemented immediately. Since we (me and Tabib) were doing reverts almost at the same time, we both equally violated 3RR. However, my request to apply 3RR to Tabib was rejected by User:Tony Sidaway. Tony Sidaway seems to be too involved in supporting User:Tabib, spending a lot of time to present his case on a formal bases, not concerning about actual subjects of the disputes, i.e. false pro-Azery propaganda by Tabib (who has the agenda) vs. true and neutral historical research, provided by other users (without agenda)). Regards, Rovoam 20:51, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Tony Sidaway[edit]

Trying to sort the muddle of evidence into something that can be analysed. there is a lot of this stuff so it will probably take all weekend at least.

If I were completely comprehensive and listed every single act vandalism, personal attack, or whatever, this might be indigestible, so I'm focusing on attention paid to User:Tabib by a page vandal and his putative socks; some collateral damage to admins and other users who intervened to fix vandalism.

A very cursory treatment of what has been done in articlespace, I just don't have enough spare time and it isn't my subject. I think the evidence is strongly suggestive of one person, LIGerasimova/Baku Ibne/Osmanoglou/Dubistdas LetzteArschloch/and whatever else, being behind the vandalism and extreme personal attacks, apparently based in Germany. User:64.136.2.254, based in California, seems to act as a proxy for User:Rovoam and may be Rovoam acting without logging in. I have provided a Whois section at the end of my evidence, giving publicly available ownership information for the relevant IP numbers, and a Dramatis Personae with a brief summary of each user involved.

28 Jan[edit]

31 Jan[edit]

01 Feb[edit]

  • 18:19
    • Appearance of the shortlived editor User:Deli-Eshek. Posts personal attacks on Talk:Safavids and suggests that there is evidence that despite being culturally Turkish, Ismail i Safavi was of Kurdish ancestry.
    • Not thought by me to be a sock--most likely just an editor with an interest in the field whose first experience of Wikipedia must have been very shocking--we probably lost him for good.

07 Feb[edit]

  • 22:14
    • Appearance of the shortlived editor User:Ulvi I.. On Talk:Safavids, makes citations from sources such as The Cambridge History of Iran, Iran. Past and Present: From Monarchy to Islamic Republic by Donald N. Wilber, and IRAN, The Modern Nations in Historical Perspectives by Yahya Armajani to support his argument, and Tabib's, that the Safavids were Turks. Makes some contributions to the RFC against LIGerasimova. No other edits. contributions.
    • Speculation: Could be a benign sock of Tabib? Possibly like Deli-Eshek was just driven away by the extreme attacks and stuff.

08 Feb[edit]

09 Feb[edit]

10 Feb[edit]

  • 01:21, 01:22
    • Safavids: First and only edit(s) by LIGerasimova on this article. Put up notice: "Caution: Site contains substantial "Turkish Bias" !" [140], [141].
  • 09:27
    • Talk:Safavids: User:LIGerasimova accuses Tabib of forming a Turkish Mafia, trying to "corrupt the editor Deli-Eshek (another "Turkish Cause" poster, above) and asked him to get in touch by email", and using another editor "Ulvi I.", as a sock puppet [142].
  • 09:49
    • WP:RFAR: User:LIGerasimova accuses User:Tabib of "apparently rigging postings...teaming up with "buddies" and apparently tries to enforce POV, in cahouts with them and possible sock-puppets" [143].
  • 13:09
    • [[User:LIGerasimova]: User:Pantherarosa places text on user page of LIGerasimova: "My Contributions Log" and a link to LIGerasimova's Wikipedia contributions [144].
    • Wild hypothesis: could this be evidence that Pantherarosa created LIGerasimova as a sock but forgot that he was logged in as Pantherarosa when he made this edit? See 15 Feb for response from User:LIGerasimova on User talk:Pantherarosa. On the other hand, sock puppetry seems out of character for Pantherarosa; his edits seem to be in good faith and reveal a good knowledge of Iran. Pantherarosa also added the contributions link to another user's page at the same time (John Kenney)--he seems to have intended to do people a favor [145].

12 Feb[edit]

14 Feb[edit]

15 Feb[edit]

16 Feb[edit]

17 Feb[edit]

20 Feb[edit]

24 Feb[edit]

25 Feb[edit]

26 Feb[edit]

  • 21:58
    • User:Osmanoglou: Osmanoglou's first ever edit. Places text "ötünü sikeyim!", evidently Turkish, meaning unknown, on his own user page. [167]
  • 22:00
    • User:Tabib: Second ever edit by Osmanoglou. Edits user page of User:Tabib to replace the phrase "Member of Wikipedia" with "Ibne of Wikipedia". The word Ibne is apparently a common Turkish insult roughly equivalent to "faggot", meaning male homosexual [168]
    • External reference for meaning of Ibne: [169]
  • 22:08
  • 22:15
  • 23:48

27 Feb[edit]

28 Feb[edit]

01 Mar[edit]

02 Mar[edit]

03 Mar[edit]

04 Mar[edit]

10 Mar[edit]

  • 22:51
    • User:Ossmanoglou: User Ossmanoglou posts spurious block notice to his own userpage [201] (presumably an attempt to forestall blocking).
  • 23:03-23:06
  • 23:14
  • 23:21
    • Rhobite blocked "User:Ossmanoglou" with an expiry time of indefinite (vandal)

11 Mar[edit]

12 Mar[edit]

Other vandalism[edit]

Please see User:Tony Sidaway/Admin log and the site logs for an account of various osmanoglou-related vandalism blocks, reverts, etc.

16 Mar[edit]

17 Mar[edit]

  • 23:13
    • User:Rovoam blanks talk page of User:Tony Sidaway and inserts following text:
      I don't think you can act as Admin in Wikipedia. You support not NPOV. You act on behave of User:Tabib, protecting him and his versions od the articles. If you continue your destructive behaviour, you will end-up protecting all your home pages as well, as I will publish here articles you have reverted so far.
    • This was followed by the entire text of what the user described as "Correct version of the article Nagorno-Karabakh Republic". [210].
    • I believe that my actions in protecting Nagorno-Karabakh republic and Nagorno-Karabakh should be scrutinized closely by the committee.
  • 23:41
    • Rovoam writes a message headed "I won't stop!" on User talk:Rdsmith4, containing the threat: "I will do this for ALL other articles in Wikipedia. Because I don't like you. I will destroy you!" [211]
  • 23:46
    • Rovoam blanks User talk:Rdsmith4 and writes the message "Try block my IP address! Try! I will get another one. Plus, I will bring here a hundred friends from all over the world. I will destroy the idea of Wikipedia! " [212].

18 Mar[edit]

Vandalism report submitted by me, early hours of 18th:

User:Rovoam, 66.52.21.46, 63.53.xxx.xxx and 4.232.45.116

got a real vandalizemebaby thing going on User:Tony Sidaway, User talk: Tony Sidaway, User:Tabib User:Rdsmith4, Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh, Karabakh, Azerbaijan, etc.

Dramatis personae[edit]

For convenience, I provide a brief summary of the users involved.

  • Pantherarosa (talk · contributions) (Edit war with Tabib on Safavids, early Feb. No edits since 28 Feb. Previously made extensive article space edits. Much knowledge of Persian culture and history. Seems like a net loss to the Wikipedia community if he has left)
  • Osmanoglou (talk · contributions) (First to edit Tabib's user page to call him "Ibne" (poofter, faggot), made spurious vandal report to WP:VIP, made good faith but unwelcome edits to AllyUnion's user page)
  • Pansee (talk · contributions) (Taunted Tabib over autofellatio--suspected to be same person as page vandal who is also using autofellatio as a theme (got it from me, obviously))
  • Ulvi I. (talk · contributions) (briefly supported Tabib then disappeared. Edited in Talk and on RFC only. Posted seemingly good sources.)

Assorted page vandals:[edit]

Some of these users send juvenile taunts in Wikipedia email after they're blocked. The return email addresses all look like fakes against real mail provider domains. Almost certainly all the same person with a lot of time on his hands. This guy seems to wake and sleep when Europeans wake and sleep.

Whois[edit]

Evidence presented by User:Dbachmann[edit]

13 March[edit]

this briefly spilled to my talkpage because of Tony Sidaway's being stalked by the vandal, [214]; after I blocked User:Suckabloke, I received the following via wiki-email 

Received: (from apache@localhost)
	by tingxi.wikimedia.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j2DBnDot009794;
       Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:49:13 GMT
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:49:13 GMT
Message-Id: <200503131149.j2DBnDot009794@tingxi.wikimedia.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: tingxi.wikimedia.org: apache set sender to wiki@wikimedia.org using -f
Subject: Wikipedia e-mail
From: Suckabloke <suck@gmail.org>
X-Mailer: MediaWiki interuser e-mailer
Etwa Du auch, Dieter?!!
Bitte nicht.
"Wikipedia" sackt immer weiter ab.
Bald "Paedophilia" ???
Suckabloke

suggesting that this person is indeed based in Germany. dab (ᛏ) 14:14, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • subsequently [215], I am being shouted at in Turkish. Imho this indicates we are dealing with a kurdish expatriate in Germany. dab (ᛏ) 16:03, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Further Osmanoglou socks[edit]

The following accounts were also socks, confirmed by technical evidence and consistent style of edits. Most of these were throwaway vandalism accounts.

  • LIGerasimova - Note this appears to be the user's "good cop" account, even providing evidence in this case.
  • Hadagoodlaugh
  • Pansee
  • -Tabib
  • -duk
  • Dubistdas Letztearschloch
  • Kiramtu Kunettabib
  • Outhmanoglou
  • Osmaanoglou
  • Jeanvaljeanvaljean
  • Fux Djclayworth
  • Fuxtony Sidaways
  • Postman Oglou
  • Smegman
  • Goastman Oglou
  • Hostman Ugly
  • Blockasock
  • Suckabloke
  • Tony Sidaways
  • Sikeyim
  • Tony Sideaway
  • Osman Oglou
  • Oussmannoglou

There's probably a pile more, but you get the idea. - David Gerard 02:33, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)


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