Talk:Owen Hargreaves

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Former good article nomineeOwen Hargreaves was a Sports and recreation good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
June 1, 2010Good article nomineeNot listed

Wrong Information posted in the United Section[edit]

I have removed the incorrect statement in Owen's Manchester United section. Owen was not branded by Sir Alex in his book as one of his worst signings, Fergie said in his book that Owen was one of his most 'disappointing' signings in his reign and he was referring to the amount of time Hargreaves was out injured. Owen responded to Sir Alex on BT Sport stating that he wished he had spoken to Alex in private then things might have turned out differently. I have updated this to reflect the correct information. Please do not post incorrect information again. 94.4.108.101 (talk) 20:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

+cat[edit]

While this is protected, could someone please add the category Bayern Munich II players. Thanks. ArtVandelay13 16:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

er...  Done ArtVandelay13 00:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

"of Welsh descent"[edit]

This is misleading. He is of English and Welsh descent, not purely of Welsh descent. This point is not covered by the fact that he is referred to as an English footballer at the start of the sentence - that refers to his (footballing) nationality, not to his ancestry. The way the line is currently written implies that he is of wholly Welsh descent, which is incorrect.

In any case, this is a peculiar thing to mention in the first sentence of the first paragraph of the Owen Hargeaves article. I don't believe I've seen it done for any other footballer, or anyone else for that matter. No - I stand corrected - someone did it for Alistair Cook (the cricketer). It was apparently also of vital importance to point out that Cook is "of Welsh descent" as early as possible in his article. This smacks to me of an agenda.Shiresman (talk) 00:39, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

reputation in Canada[edit]

Being a Canadian football fan, and a diehard Bayern fan, I was wondering if his reputation in Canada warrants admission into the article, since he was born in Canada. Many fans of Team Canada think negatively of him, I have often heard him called a "whore" or a "traitor". just wondering if this is relevant to an article on him, as he was born here. this bigsoccer.com thread is relevant, as you can see, I post on there, and started that thread, not intending it to go the way it did, the thread was a real eye opener to what others think of him. [1]

--Jadger 08:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Hang On, I thought he was cut by Team Canada?

on that thread I linked to, he was cut by one of the junior teams, U-15 I think. but that doesnt mean that he was cut from the senior national team permanently. so ya, difficult issue that should be added into the article somehow.
--Jadger 17:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

pic[edit]

can someone clean up the picture of hargreaves. its just in the middle of the page at the moment.

He is a United player, to say he's not is laughable[edit]

PeeJay, he's a United player. Period. Whether you like it or not, you don't make the rules here. WP:FOOTY has addressed this point, which was shown to you in an edit summary which you subsequently ignored. Being on the team means you play for that team. Whether or not Hargreaves EVER appears in a match for United doesn't matter as his status on the team is still as a player. I've been looking through your edits and you come very close to reverting everything that isn't exactly the same as your opinion or pov. This is something that was discussed long ago on the aforementioned page and decided upon. You don't get to change it on a whim. Batman2005 04:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you give me a link to that discussion, as I couldn't find it (it's not that I don't believe you, I just can't find it). Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 17:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
See PJ's talk page and mine, for a discussion about this particular topic (which has been pretty much resolved), and for a link to the last WP:FOOTY discussion. ArtVandelay13 17:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I've dealt with it. Kingjeff 17:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I'd hardly say that there was a consensus reached one way or the other on that one, but although I think the current action (Hargreaves in the category) is incorrect, I'm not going to worry about it.
Perhaps the category needs to be reworded to something like "players who have been contracted to Man Utd"? Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 17:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
"x players, past and present" is the usual header, I've changed it to that. Although 'played for' is technically correct as well, as it can be taken to mean ' was a player for'. However, it seems to confuse people, and create argument where it's not needed, so a less ambiguous phrase is probably better. ArtVandelay13 17:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
It's not incorrect. If he NEVER plays for Manchester United, he will still have been a Manchester United player. Ronaldo still has a winners medal from the 1994 World Cup even though he didn't play a single minute of the tournament. He was a player at the 1994 world cup, won a medal and will always go down in history as being a player on the winning team from that cup. This is absolutely no different. He's not a part of the organization as a trainer, or as a physio, or a technical director, his specific JOB is a "PLAYER," ergo, he's a "Manchester United Player." I fail to see how this is so difficult to understand. He PLAYS for Mancester United, the category doesn't say "people who have played games for mancester united." Batman2005 20:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Erm, yes it did, ergo the confusion:
This page lists footballers who have played for Manchester United of Manchester, England.
That was the categories opening line, before Kingjeff and ArtVandelay13 changed it. As of now, when has OH ever "played" for MU?Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 22:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
If you would look at the discussion you would understand this rather elementary concept. Owen Hargreaves - Football player. Manchester United - Football club. Owen Hargreaves is a member of the Manchester United Football club. Owen Hargreaves, a football player, plays football for Manchester United. Played = past tense form of play. Ergo, Manchester United is the team that Owen Hargreaves plays for. At the end of the day, Owen Hargreaves may say "today I played for Manchester United." See how simple it is? I sure do. Batman2005 01:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and as of this moment he hasn't "played" for United, so saying it's a list of players that have "played" for United, then adding OH is factually incorrect. It's an elementary concept - to have "played" for someone, you need to first "play" for someone. OH has yet to "play" for United, so he can't of have "played" for United. Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 14:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Well no, again, this isn't a difficult concept and you're making it much more difficult. I'm fairly certain that he has participated in trainings with United...is that not playing football for United? YES! And, you're being disingenuous, the category NEVER said that it was for people who had played games for United, it said people who have played for United. By your reasoning, at the 1994 World Cup, Ronaldo shouldn't have been given a winners medal because he didn't see time on the field...since FIFA states that all players from the winning team get a medal....he didn't step on the field during a match so he wasn't a player right? Wrong. Owen Hargreaves is a football player for Manchester United, which is exactly what those categories list, you and PeeJay are about the only two people dense enough not to realize that. Batman2005 18:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
No. As far as I am concerned it's simple, until a player steps on to the field in a competitive match, he should not be listed in the category. No matter about your irrelevant comparisons with tournament regulations. And if that's not what the category is for, then in my opinion the category is worthless. Training with Manchester United is definitely, 100%, NOT playing for Manchester United. - fchd 18:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
If I may offer a suggestion, if the debate is about whether OH should be in category "Manchester United F.C. players", then surely one way of construing the situation is: "OH is a football player"; "Manchester United pays OH's salary"; "therefore OH is a MUFC player". This is compatible with the current description of the category, "This page is a list of Manchester United players, past and present."; I acknowledge that that the previous description "This page lists footballers who have played for Manchester United of Manchester, England." would not currently accommodate OH, but I would point out that originally there was no definition for the category at all, and in my opinion the previous definition is rather over-restrictive. Regardless, within a few days or weeks OH will be a MUFC player according to whichever definition you use, so I would urge all concerned not to be overly concerned with recentism, and keep cool. Best regards, -- Arwel (talk) 19:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd also like to point out, that this discussion has already taken place, and been resolved, on the Football project page. Enough said, OH stays in the category...if you don't like it, go start your own wiki site. Batman2005 23:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Nice attitude you have there.
I'd already conceded the point on OH being on the category, especially with the intro line being rewritten. And just because it was "resolved" on the football project page doesn't make it a) law - the football project have no more or no less importance or right to any article than anyone else, so if as an editor I disagree, I can change it (or try and get some consensus on the talk page), and b) doesn't make it "right" - saying he's a player because he's trained with the team is, imo, a ridiculous arguement - if you want the category to read "has played for" and to mean is payed by MU and has kicked a ball in training, then you'd have to include Ferguson, Busby and Atkinson (for example).
And Enough said, OH stays in the category...if you don't like it, go start your own wiki site. - Oh, I'm sorry - I missed the announcement on the frontpage that said you'd become the final word on what is correct or not on wiki. [[2]] Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 04:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Well no, you wouldn't, because Ferguson, Busby and Atkinson weren't contracted as players. They were contracted to manage. Completely different thing as you're aware i'm sure. Hargreaves' contract doesn't say he's a phsyio or a manager or a ball boy, it says he's a football player. Ergo, he's a player for Manchester United. Honestly, how hard is that to figure out? I'm not the final word, but the consensus reached prior to you continuing this ridiculous defense of the losing side, IS the final word. Batman2005 11:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Squad Number[edit]

Hargreaves is number 23, I saw him walk up the stairs at the end of the community shield win and he had 23 on his shorts, and with Kieran Richardson leaving and the number 23 shirt been his number at Bayern Munich, I believe it should be put on the squad page. Stew jones 17:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, you're going to have to wait to get a source. Until there is a source you can't list a squad number. Kingjeff 17:40, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Turns out that you were wrong. That's what happens when people want to make unsourced changes to pages. Batman2005 22:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at what you originally wrote and you'll see why he called you that. Kingjeff 00:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Private life[edit]

I edited the details there for two reasons.

1. The level of English was atrocious. The header previously was 'Private Live'. And the words were clearly cut and pasted from somewhere. 2. It's all speculation so I have left it at that.

Hope all are happy with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boils (talkcontribs) 23:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Lead section[edit]

It is redundant to write that Hargreaves is an "English footballer, who plays ... for ... England."--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 22:23, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Not so. There are some players, like Pepe and Deco, who are Brazilian and yet they play for the Portugal national team. Also, there are some English players who don't play for the English national team. It's all about consistency, IMO. – PeeJay 22:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
FIFA requires citizenship to play for a national team, so it is redundant. If you think it is important to include his citizenships in the lead, it should indicate Canadian and British, not English--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 08:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

As PeeJay stated, not every english soccer player plays for England. There fore it isn't redundant. Kingjeff (talk) 21:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

English in what sense? British Citizens?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Exactly. Hargreaves can only be considered English for two reasons: his father is English (i.e. born in England) and he plays for the English national team. I don't especially agree with noting that he is an "English footballer", but I don't think it's redundant to say that he is an "English footballer who plays for England". There are other reasons than redundancy to avoid mentioning his nationality within the first few words. – PeeJay 21:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Canadian-born English footballer I would say is the correct usage of the situation. Kingjeff (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Owen Hargreaves/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk) 20:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

The prose for this article seems good at first glance, but I have not checked every part yet. The main issue with this article is that it does not have enough references, and those that are used do not always support what the article is saying. There is even a cleanup banner on part of the article, which automatically means that this cannot be a GA yet. My other concern is that the article seems to have undergone a few changes recently which were reverted. I had a quick check and it all seemed to be vandalism, but I'd just like a little reassurance!

The main content of the article seems OK, but it cannot be passed without references. Here are a few other comments.

Lead

  • Is it right to call him a current international when he hasn't played for so long? ("plays for England") Or am I being pedantic?
  • "during which time he won four German league titles and the 2000–01 UEFA Champions League". Surely he was part of a team which won, rather than won them himself?
  • "Substantial controversy": not sure about "substantial". Considerable? Or just "controversy"?
  • Not sure that the article cited can be used to claim that controversy remains in Canada about his "defection." Seems more like one journalists' opinion

Early Life

  • Ref needed for information about his father playing for Bolton and for his brothers.
  • Ref (2) does not have any of the given information about his family. It merely states "born in Canada to an English father and Welsh mother."
  • Is there anything else which could be added to this section?

Bayern Munich

  • There are no references at all for this section. There is a cleanup banner for it which is enough for the article to fail GA by itself.
  • Prose issue: Several paragraphs start with the season (e.g. 2001-2) which is repetitive.
  • What was the reaction to his performances? Could there be a comment on how well he was perceived to have done, or an evaluation of his performance from the press?

Manchester United

  • Not every claim is referenced. For example, "Hargreaves was finally unveiled as a Manchester United player on 1 July, having signed a four-year contract with the club. He was then revealed to the press on 9 July, along with fellow newcomer Nani. Hargreaves was given the number 4 shirt at Old Trafford."

International career

  • Needs references, especially for claims such as his being the second England player not to have played English league football.

General

  • What about his style of play?
  • Critical reaction to his performances?
  • I may be wrong, but wasn't it his England performances which made Man Utd wish to sign him? And maybe mention more about how they pursued him for a while.
  • The image needs Alttext, but this is not essential for GA.

As the article stands, it could be quick-failed. However, there is the basis of a good article here and I am willing to place it on hold for a week to see if it can be fixed. I'm sure there are plenty of references which could be used. Once the issues are addressed, I will check the prose a little more carefully. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

As nothing has been done on this article for a week, I must unfortunately fail the article. The citing remains a major issue and I am a little worried that an edit war is taking place. I would be happy to review the article again if the fixes are made and the article is re-submitted. I still believe that the basic article is a good one. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Query[edit]

".....only the second to [play for England] without having previously played in the English football league system" - what about the dozens of players who represented England in the 16 years between the first international match and the establishment of the Football League? Most of them never played in the English football league system...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Category:Association football defenders[edit]

The article is currently in Category:Association football defenders. Did he actually ever play in defence? I can't remember him being there, and the article has no other mention of him playing at the back. doomgaze (talk) 14:05, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

He played at right-back several times for Bayern and England, especially in a wing-back role. I'm fairly sure he's played there for United too, but only as cover. – PeeJay 23:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Canadian Opinions of the players[edit]

I'm sorry but this is a real historical situation. There is an outrage in Canada about his decisions. The continent added was neutral, third person, fully annotated, which made no judgment or opinion on the situation. It only stated it happened.

However the deletions by User PeeJay2K3 lack any explanation ( one being a dismissive condescending gesture). He admits to openly editorializing the article for his views and opinions openly . He also fails to Provide any link to sources denying the controversy within Canada occurred.

The content should be restored and the user blocked from further removing it without proper proof to its authenticity.

By all means mention that fans of the Canadian clubs don't want Hargreaves playing for them, and if it is sourced, mention that the perception is that he has "turned his back" on Canada. But you must not suggest that FIFA has an institutionalised bias when in fact Hargreaves merely chose to play for the best team he could (by his ancestry, I might add, not on residency). – PeeJay 17:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

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External links modified[edit]

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Goal for England[edit]

He did scored a goal for England in the World Cup 2006 on penalties against Portugal. Haaazzziiim (talk) 04:15, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

So you're saying he didn't score a goal for England. Goals scored in penalty shoot-outs don't count towards career statistics. – PeeJay 13:24, 29 August 2019 (UTC)