Talk:Provinces of Ireland

November 2002

"loosely federated kinships" or "kingships" ? which ?

I strongly suspect this would be kingdoms. I will alter it accordingly which would reflect the status ante quo. user:sjc

No legal status?

The first section says that the provinces have no legal status and this may be correct in the sense that there are no provincial governments, legal jurisdictions, police forces, etc. But this presents a slightly false picture. The situation is a far cry for example from the way in which the historical French provinces have been eradicated. The Irish provinces continue to be used for organisational purposes by various statutory bodies. To give just two examples, the Central Statistics Office presents most (possibly all) of its census data broken down by province, in addition to breaking down the figures by local authority [1], and the Met Office provides separate forecasts and climate data for the provinces [2]. The point I'm trying to make I suppose is that the provinces are still very 'real' in the day-to-day administration of Ireland and they're not purely a historical and sporting notion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidmccormack (talk • contribs) 02:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

Boundaries

I presume the modern province boundaries are not any older than the county boundaries? Morwen - Talk 11:46, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Maybe....

Image

I think the image on here isn't quite right - it shows Longford as part of Connacht, whereas the individual province pages show it as part of Leinster. sjorford 13:02, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Certainly. Longford is and has always been one of the twelve counties of Leinster.--File Éireann 21:42, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. zoney ▓█▒ talk 19:15, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Flag

Question: why is the "red hand" open handed in the flag shown on this page? Shouldn't it match this flag? Is this a mistake? --JW1805 15:25, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes my friend - it is a mistake - I have commented about this on the image itself. Perhaps it would be best to contact User:Zoney about this as he originally created the image.Jonto 00:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I just corrected the flag, putting in the proper "red hand". All is well.--JW1805 01:57, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

"Golden age"

"during Ireland's golden age".... the igorant amongst us (i.e. me) would like to know when that was, at the moment it is too ambigious for the lay reader. Pcb21| Pete 14:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, it unreasonably assumes a knowledge of Irish history on the part of the reader. I have re-worded it – if anyone wants to specify the period more clearly, by all means do so. Vilĉjo 19:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Gaelic provinces

"When under Gaelic rule, Ireland was divided into provinces": is there any evidence that the word "province" was used before the Norman invasion? Each one had a king, so the natural English word is "kingdom". --Henrygb 16:04, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Defaced Ulster Flag?

Most of the red hand at the centre of the ulster flag has been removed if you follow the link through to the file: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Four_Provinces_Flag.svg (80.189.121.40 20:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC))

Midland colony

Are there any maps we can use that would should an approximation of all five fifths of Ireland, before the Province of Meath was assimilated? I found this, which might be close. Obviously we have to avoid WP:OR, though maps could surely be created given some source with a written description of the province's extant. --Setanta 09:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Citations

Needs citations, one is not enough. 24.195.129.65 (talk) 00:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

After the Norman invasion...

Its quite misleading to state that Midhe gradually merged with Leinster. In fact the whole article seems to ignore the fact that after the English conquest of Ireland - it was the English administration that dictated the boundaries and county composition of the provinces. Did anyone ever wonder why no county (all English created) straddles two or more provinces? Anyone never wonder why Louth was removed from Ulster and made part of Leinster? Just like what is now County Cavan was removed from Connaght and merged with Ulster? etc. etc. The Irish provinces are of Irish origin but of English redesign. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

New Updated Flag

Hi i am the editor of the previous flag and i would like to like to submit the following new flag of the four provinces for use, it incorporates a new updated ulster and connacht flag which are currently under discussion and follows the divison used in the old flag although different variations do exist.Caomhan27 (talk) 21:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I've removed all of the images from the info box. The is no symbol for the provinces of Ireland. The individual provinces have traditional arms. These are quartered to form a common symbol of the island of Ireland. Discussing that symbol in the article may be appropriate (and is, in my opinion) but it is unsuitable for the info box.

Additionally, the image above, whilst beautiful, is a fabrication. Please stop introducing original thought to the encyclopaedia. --RA (✍) 23:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Not sure exactly what you mean RA, I included a modern enclosure of the FP arms but the FP flag was always present in the article and is a well known representative flag. The removed image that you saw was just a trial image repository file and so changed to various images during use, the current file was not meant to be included in the article but thanks for compliment :). Caomhan27 (talk) 02:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I know you didn't add it. I didn't mean to imply that you did.

What I mean is that the subject of this article does not have an emblem or flag or arms, etc.. Individual provinces have arms (just as individual counties do). An emblem exists that is called the "flag of the four provinces", made up of a quartering of the arms of individual provinces, but that does not mean it should appear in the info box of this article. It may be worth discussing in the article.

If you disagree, please provide a source. --RA (✍) 11:08, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Aran Islands

I assume they are in Connacht (despite the nearest land being County Clare). The map on this page shows them to be in Connacht, the map on the Munster page includes them as Munster and the map on the Connacht page does not include them as part of Connacht. 121.217.219.110 (talk) 02:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Opening paragraph of lede issue

Or more in effect "historical" over "tradtional".

Whilst your edit is simply you continuing to be disruptive, I may as well indulge you:

How exactly is your edit ""rv to better version" and "I think the previous sentence was more accurate"?

The opening line of this article was fraught with several issues which I mended and you reverted several days later after going through my edit contributions. Despite that explain to me how is the old version better? Let me break it down for you why it's not:

• Your preferred version sees the article start with: "Ireland has historically been divided into four provinces". So which historical period are you talking about? Pre-Elizabethan or post-Elizabethan? Historically Ireland also had five provinces and possibly for a far longer time. In fact at one stage maybe 7 (Ulster divided between three different over-kingdoms). The statement I inserted "There are traditionally four" fixes the historical issue as today people always talk about the four provinces and whilst they serve no status legally, they are a traditional unit. Just like how on Wikipedia we regard the 32 counties of Ireland as traditional - despite there actually being 33 counties by the turn of the 20th century, and their replacement by County Councils in Eire and Unitary Districts in NI - because people here have held onto the traditional number, the same with the defunct 32 counties.
• Your preferred version also disregards Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#First_sentence which states "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence." You could hardly argue that stating "Provinces of Ireland" is verbatim (considering the example they give in this section) so your preventing the article from following the standard convention used on almost all pages on this site.

So, tell me how exactly your preferred version is better? Mabuska ^(talk) 13:01, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I've also notified possibly interested members at the Ireland WikiProject to see what any of them may think about it. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:07, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think that the article as it was before the current flurry has been improved by any of the edits since, and I think 79.97.222.210 was right to revert to that version. Specifically, I think "There are traditionally four Provinces of Ireland", while it does contain the title, is awkward and not particularly informative. "Ireland has historically been divided into four provinces" properly sets the context for the article. It is also, of course, true. It was divided into four provinces for the best part of a thousand years. The sentence immediately following informs us that, before that, it was divided into five provinces. Scolaire (talk) 13:54, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I sort of expected you to object Scolaire, but that is a good thing as it can help me show the IP how to go about discussing edits rather than trying to impose them.

I disagree that there is any awkwardness as it flows naturally. Also the present doesn't set the context for the article properly either. We still have the issue of the fact Ireland as not always been historical divided into four provinces. Also stating "It was divided into four provinces for the best part of a thousand years." is similar saying Ireland has been partitioned for the best of a hundred years but lets ignore whatever before. As an actual unit that was used in Gaelic Ireland to represent a major over-kingdom, of which there where more than five at one stage. Since the end of Gaelic Ireland centuries ago the provinces have had a traditional/cultural use seeing as they no longer represented provincial over-kingdoms.

I will cede that my edit does not sort the issue of the lede out as best as it could. In fact setting the first sentence aside the whole lede needs a revamp. Like what part of Meath became a part of Ulster? Louth at some stage went from Ulster to Leinster and Cavan went from Connacht to Ulster, but what part of Meath became part of Ulster? I can only assume the southern portion of Monaghan? Heres a draft proposal to improve what is there at present:

The Provinces of Ireland (Irish: Cúigí na hÉireann) refers to the historical and cultural major territorial divisions that the island is divided by. The provinces where originally used by the Gaelic Irish to represent a major over-kingdom, the boundaries of which where changeable. With the end of the Gaelic era, the provinces came to function as fixed-boundary historical and cultural entities that have been used since by various organisations as a means of regional administration and representation.

Originally consisting of five, the number of provinces varied until the (whatever period, Elizabethan possibly? Or just before that) period, from whence there have only been regarded as four: Connacht, Leinster, Munster, and Ulster. The original fifth province was Meath which due to Anglo-Norman influence gradually merged with Leinster, but is remembered in the names of the present day counties of Meath and Westmeath. Other former provincial over-kingdoms included Ailech, Airgialla, and Breifne.

Obviously only a proposed draft which can be expanded upon to provide more information, but I think it greatly improves what is there now. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:02, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Seriously, no. The lead is supposed to introduce the article. What you have written should be in the article body, not the lead. Besides that, it is almost pure speculation, and devoid of citation. "The provinces where [sic] originally used by the Gaelic Irish to represent a major over-kingdom"? Used in what way? Who says? "With the end of the Gaelic era, the provinces came to function as fixed-boundary historical and cultural entities"? When was the "end of the Gaelic era"? Who fixed the boundaries? Where and how were they fixed? Who says? "The number of provinces varied until the (whatever period, Elizabethan possibly? Or just before that) period"? How did they vary? How many variations were there? Who says? And shouldn't we get a ball-park figure for the period before making such a bold statement? "Other former provincial over-kingdoms"? They were former over-kingdoms all right, but who says they were "provincial" over-kingdoms?

If and when somebody takes the time and trouble to write a proper article, with verifiable content, that will be the time to edit the lead, to reflect the new content. With the article in the deplorable state it's in, at least the lead is concise and informative and gets across the salient facts that we know to be true.

As to the first sentence, it is cluttered and awkward. And worst of all, it has a hanging preposition. I am by no means of the opinion that hanging prepositions are always wrong, but in this case it's like chalk scraping on a blackboard. Don't give up the attempt to frame a concise, accurate and informative opening sentence that includes the article title, but it still needs a lot of work. Scolaire (talk) 12:49, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

It was only a propose draft. It draws upon other Wikipedia articles and other sources gotten at short notice to give a general—and despite what you think, largely accurate—overview of the provinces of Ireland for what is only a proposed draft. Obviously expanding upon it all in the article and source citations would come too. I thought you knew more about Irish history and what the provinces actually represented back when they mattered. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:25, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Whilst sources can be gotten for all of the proposed draft, I will admit that finding ones that you could call academic (if you really wanted to push it that far) are oddly hard to come across. Quite a few sources I have that you'd expect to have entries for "Provinces of Ireland" or for the separate provinces do not, but do for loads of lesser things. Would of helped a lot, but I know where I should be able to get some. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:43, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Out of curiousity, of these facts that "we know to be true" what was the fifth province that the Irish word cuige infers? Are you sure it's Meath? Also what parts of Meath became part of Ulster? I know of a part but not parts. The lede as is, is inaccurate and severely lacking. In regards to the demise of the Gaelic Era, it is regarded as ending with the Flight of the Earls which led to the end of the Gaelic system in Ulster, the last bastion of it in Ireland. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Here's three refs for Meath being the fifth cúige. I have no idea how (or when, or why) it was divided up. If that fact is dubious and unsourced it should be removed.

The article, as it is, is severely lacking and probably inaccurate. Inaccuracies in the lead should, as I say, be removed. But it is doing it backways to add content to the lead before it is added to the article. If you can do the necessary research, and write a decent article, it will be time enough then to edit the lead to reflect that. Scolaire (talk) 20:19, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Already working on it, got quite a few good sources that back up that proposed draft and would fill this article out. Also I don't disagree that Meath was a province and was one of the five before it became the traditional four... as I've discovered since I made that proposed draft, it's just not one of the original five provinces. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Just to give notice seeing as it's been a while since I worked on the draft, but it is roughly 70% complete, sourced and more than enough to put what this article is at present to shame. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Any of the versions discussed above seem better than the current opening of the lede which says that there have been these four since 800AD and immediately contradicts itself. Anyone with some knowledge of discussions on this page care to restore one of the older versions? -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 13:06, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Changed by an IP in July -- changed back to earlier version. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 13:08, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

A "Fifth Province" section?

Perhaps a new section of this article titled "Fifth Province in popular diaspora culture", WITH CITATIONS, is warranted.

"Fifth Province" is the name of Irish-themed pubs in Chicago, USA, and Melbourne, Australia, and possibly elsewhere, too. Implicit in various websites (e.g., http://www.nyu.edu/as/irelandhouse/fifthprovince/ ) is that in this usage, "Fifth Province" refers both to the Irish diaspora and to a mythical province in addition to the current actual four provinces of Ireland. Other diaspora websites posit that the fifth province is Meath/Mide/middle, despite the history detailed in the present WP article.

I myself am not competent to write such a section, having no known Irish ancestry, and little knowledge of Irish history or of diaspora culture (aside from having spent most of my life in Chicago and Boston, listening to Clancy Brothers records as a child, and learning about Evacuation Day (Massachusetts).). Acwilson9 (talk) 04:08, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

"Since pre-historic times, there have been four Provinces of Ireland"

The above statement is not accurate! The present Gaelic term for 'province is 'cúige', pronounced koo-ig-eh, and means "the fifth part", because Ireland was divided into five separate provinces in Roman and medieval times. The fifth province known as 'Midhe', meaning "middle" or "centre", is now part of modern day Leinster. Ériugena (talk) 21:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

References