Talk:Lynsey de Paul

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Content moved[edit]

Content moved from article saved at 19:34, 31 Jan 2004 by user 62.40.175.111 Andrewa 18:40, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Recorded with...[edit]

Bones is a disambiguation page. I'm not sure if this referes to the Swedish band or Bones Thugs-n-Harmony. Can someone who does please update the link? --Selket 07:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bones (disambiguation) is the disambiguation page. Mr.Atoz (talk) 00:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"House cats"[edit]

She appeared in a documentary entitled "House Cats" which aired on The Science Channel 9/27/2008. She owns a three legged siamese cat. She thinks she can talk to her cats.Aaron (talk) 17:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

She can (or could) talk to her cats. Any human can talk to any animal. Whether the animals understand is another matter.--Doris Kami (talk) 15:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In 1998 she introduced here Battersea Cats: [1] (but presumably they talked for themselves). And in the 1990s she shared her Victorian mansion in north London "with a three-legged cat called Tripod": [2] Martinevans123 (talk) 16:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth[edit]

This FreeBMD source clearly gives 1948. But, although registration was in September 1948, the day and month of the birth can be found only in the record itself. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • FreeBMD says "We make no warranty whatsoever as to the accuracy or completeness of the FreeBMD data." which doesn't inspire confidence. I cited the Guardian because there was a request for a citation and they were convenient. Looking at what's out there, we have her age as:
66 - FreeBMD, Daily Mail, The Palgrave Dictionary of Anglo-Jewish History
65 - The Penguin Encyclopedia of Popular Music, Songwriters: A Biographical Dictionary with Discographies
64 - Guardian, Independent, Sky News, Telegraph, Mirror, Express, BBC, Sunday Times, Jewish Chronicle, The Encyclopedia of Popular Music,
A couple of other points arise. The FreeBMD entry has the given name as "Lyndsey" not "Lynsey". And it's perhaps odd that the birth would be registered in Southwark when the family lived in Cricklewood. Andrew (talk) 22:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How intruguing - age 65 as well! I'm not an expert on London birth registration districts. And we don't know if she was born at home or in hospital. But transcription errors are quite possible, of course, at least for names and locations. I'm guessing all of the "64" sources may well have themselves shared a common root source, and one would not expect the BBC to get this kind of basic fact wrong. I guess some generous soul, who has access, could tell, us what the register index image shows, but the bottom line would be sight of the full Birth Register entry. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:34, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the index scan which has the name as "Lynsey" not "Lyndsey" so that's a transcription error. The index doesn't have the exact birth date - it's just listing births for Jul-Sep of 1948. This doesn't seem to fit with the birth being in June. Andrew (talk) 22:40, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's right, the indexes are just grouped into quarterly lists. But a June birth should have been placed in the previous quarter. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My experience is that it's fairly common for deaths births to be recorded in the BMD in the quarter following the one in which the birth took place. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:22, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And any views on reliability of FreeBMD in general? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:29, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't usually use FreeBMD as I've got an Ancestry.com subscription - but in this case it doesn't provide any additional info. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:38, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So your bit of "WP:OR" concurs with mine? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:03, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Apart from the century.  ;- ) Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some births don't get registered for up several weeks after the event, so it's perfectly logical that her birth would appear in the July-September quarter (e.g. I was born 13/6, but wasn't registered til 3/7). Company records also confirm she was born in 1948:

Crisso (talk) 02:11, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Today I checked the microfiche for birth records and found the following: Lynsey M. Rubin birth listed on the September microfiche for 1948; her mother's maiden name is given as De Groot, born at Southwark

knowing how you clowns disapprove of "original research", you might like to wait until this appears in the "Guardian", that "reputable source" that lies about Colin Jordan and for both Satpal Ram and Gerry Gable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.101.5 (talk) 20:39, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya! I was wondering if you could support your claim that the guardian posts falsities about any parties such as the Satpal Ram and Gerry Gable you had mentioned. We're trying to use the best sources available and I did not attend clown college, such as Penn Jillette, so sorry to disappoint. What microfiche did you find for Lynsey de Paul? I don't believe you're referring to the birth date, because we have her born on June 11th, 1948. Personal research isn't inherently bad, but who's to say that you aren't trying to push an agenda of your own? That's all anyone's trying to say. I'm interested in where you found what you're referring to; would you post a link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chewbakadog (talk • contribs) 20:49, 9 October 2014‎
Sorry, I should have spelt the name Lyndsey - the microfiche is the official one' I've just check the BMD on-line, and it is correct. She could have been born June 10 or 11 but her birth appears on the September fiche, at any rate, she wasn't born in 1950. When her will is published - assuming she left one - her actual date of birth should appear in that. Alternatively you can fork out for a birth or death certificate.
Everybody has an agenda, but my research is conducted overwhelmingly from public domain sources. Check out my satpalramisguilty website and searchlightarchive for documentation on the lies mentioned. I actually took the Guardian to the Press Complaints Commission over that.
And just for good measure, compare what Clive Stafford Smith AND the New York Times Supreme Court correspondent said about Linda Carty with what Yours Truly said, then reassess your idea of "reputable" sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.101.5 (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2014 (UTC) ‎

The microfiche says 1948, and that over-rides everything else unless there is a compelling reason otherwise. Her death certificate will contain her date of birth and so should her will. The latter will probably be published fairly soon; I would assume she has left some bequests. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.114.153 (talk) 20:06, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, your personal testimony counts for nothing. All we can rely on are reliable sources. But thanks for looking. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Published sources giving 1948 as her birth year include this and this - as well as the sources cited by Crisso. We should make clear in the article that some sources support 1948, but that 1950 has also been claimed. Simply, we need to put both years, with citations, in the article, and readers can decide which is most likely to be true. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:28, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I feel she was more likely a couple of years older than me than two months younger, so please do put 1948 in too. Rothorpe (talk) 01:14, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, now done. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:29, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, thanks. Rothorpe (talk) 12:50, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The next question is what to do about the year in the infobox. It's clear to me that, in fact, she was born in 1948, and that the infobox parameters don't (unless someone tells me different) allow for uncertainty. Should we change the year in the infobox template (currently stating 1950), or manually fill out the infobox to cover the uncertainty? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:34, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is a way to allow for uncertainty. See the Doris Day page. Crisso (talk) 14:55, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but I think that only works well when the person is still alive. We would have to double up the death parameter, which would give "1 October 2014 (age 64) or 1 October 2014 (age 66)" - which doesn't work. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your handmade solution works beautifully. That leaves only the category. Presumably that has to be one year or another (currently 1950). Rothorpe (talk) 15:42, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I would support changing it to 1948 - but, frankly, I find it difficult to get excited about categories in general. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We can't even use Category: 1940s births or Category:1950s births! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
1950 capped off the '40s, as far as I'm concerned, or each decade wouldn't have ten years. Not Wikipedia's way, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:09, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Martinevans123 wrote: "And we don't know if she was born at home or in hospital". I just found this. The "De Groot Family Tree" on ancestry.co.uk is here. - ErikvanB (talk) 03:01, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, he did, didn't he. Probably because The Daily Telegraph, which claims that she was born in Cricklewood, didn't tell us. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian obituary (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/oct/02/lynsey-de-paul) was amended on 31 October 2014 to show the subject's birth year as 1948, and hence her age at death as 66. That obituary also comments that 1950 "was correct at the time of publication", which seems odd. Since no citations are provided in this subject's Wikipedia article for the BBC and Times obituaries, this can now be regarded as a non-issue. Phil Champ (talk) 13:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Where'd the name come from?[edit]

A lot of the dispute about her age seems to stem from records for Lynsey/Lyndsey (Monckton/M.) Rubin. It doesn't seem clear from the article that Lynsey de Paul was called that. In her early life, there's something saying she changed her name from "Reuben", but doesn't mention a middle name at all. Maybe I missed it. Source? InedibleHulk (talk) 08:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are ample sources - both BMD, and other sources - that her birth surname was Rubin, not Reuben, which was probably just someone's typo at some stage, and that her middle name was Monckton. BMD gives her first name as Lyndsey, which could be a transcription typo, or the original spelling - we don't know. Bradley Walsh here refers to "...Lyndsey Rubin who is Lynsey De Paul..... [O]n the cover [of "Storm in a Teacup"] it's got L. Rubin, and that was her real name...." That's verified by the entries here, which shows that she was still writing songs for other people as L. Rubin up to around 1972. Then, when she launched her own career, she started using the name De Paul as both performer and writer on her own records. (On this Spanish record she's credited with different names on the A-side and B-side, which is quite interesting.) I very much doubt whether there's any reason for using the name "De Paul" other than it sounded cooler, as a stage name, than "Rubin". Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would be interesting to know if she took the name Paul from a family member. Was she an only child? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A spot of WP:OR suggests that she had a brother John, born 1944 - confirmation Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:31, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Aha... ".. There had been the massacre at the Munich Olympics and I was told that it would be better not to have a Jewish name. I took De from my mother’s maiden name, De Groot, and my father’s middle name was Paul...." Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:36, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good stuff, could all be added in my view. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:37, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done.  :-) Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:44, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All right then. I guess that's what the "Reuben" source meant by "dissociate herself from her family". Maybe we should replace that one, eh?
Oddly enough, someone named "L de Paul" removed the "Jewish family" part last November and changed the birth year to 1950. And that's it for her Wikipedia career. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Still not sold on Monckton, though. Can't figure out a way to exclude post-death sources, and you know a lot of those just check Wikipedia. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:42, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
p.s. should we link Munich massacre inside her quote? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't there some guidance somewhere against linking words inside verbatim quotes? But I've no objection to it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:53, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is. But I'm also fine with that. The point of the guidance is to not imply words into other people's mouths. But it applies better to things like war and peace. Something this specific and unambiguous is OK. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:57, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How about this: "Lynsey De Paul – FairfaxGardens. She was born as Lyndsey Monckton Rubin in 1948. Her parents Herbert and Mena lived at 98 Shootup Hill......". Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:47, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's a bit better, but it would be great if we could find one from before April 24, 2007 (when that Daily Mail "Reuben" source was the only reference). Or if we could ask that editor where he'd heard it. He seems to have packed up shop in August 2013, though.
At the end of the day, I guess it isn't exactly slanderous. Just a weird given name, especially for a girl (I find). InedibleHulk (talk) 11:56, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
For a moment there I thought you meant this editor! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ha, no. He seems visible. Weird surname, though. How do you say that? Dur. Pays to read the lead. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:25, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Imperial version of "Dectar", lol. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:47, 12 October 2014 (UTC) [reply]
So, as for her mother...Mena? Meta? InedibleHulk (talk) 12:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Another detail that would be decided by the birth certificate. Maybe we should all chip in a fiver, haha. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:19, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At least BMD is consistent about "Meta", as a mother and a wife to Herbert P./Paul. I guess they're a bit trustworthy. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:25, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we have very strong sources for "Monckton" as her middle name. It was added, unsourced, by an IP, if I recall. If we have stronger sources for "Meta", we should use that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:11, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Meta would seem more likely since Monckton has very definite Catholic associations.--Doris Kami (talk) 13:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Abusive" family and the Daily Mail[edit]

I don't think we should be using this source for anything about her family background. There have been multiple discussions over whether the Mail should be regarded as a reliable source at all, and even though it claims to be quoting her directly, we know from experience that it can misrepresent statements, and we also know that members of her family including her brother are alive and may not accept (I don't know) that she came from an "abusive" family. Are there better sources for these allegations than the Mail? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Probably. Just seemed a huge part of that story, and conspicuous by its absence here. I don't mind if you'd like it back that way. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:09, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place of brith.[edit]

Where was de Paul born? Cricklewood or Southwark? The current source says Cricklewood. But some sources, such as The Stage, give Southwark: [3] Martinevans123 (talk) 12:36, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Stage also says she was born in 1950, so judge its reliability accordingly. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe other sources which say Southwark have just copied from The Stage. But I thought somone had suggested her birth was registered in Southwark? In fact, IP86 above said: "Today I checked the microfiche for birth records and found the following: Lynsey M. Rubin birth listed on the September microfiche for 1948; her mother's maiden name is given as De Groot, born at Southwark." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed Cricklewood (see edit summary). ErikvanB (talk) 03:44, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But The Daily Telegraph is considered a WP:RS and says: "The daughter of a property developer, Lynsey de Paul was born Lynsey Monckton Rubin in Cricklewood, north London, on June 11 1948". Whereas trees.ancestry.co.uk is surely an open public site with no editoral oversight whatsoever? I have no reason to doubt MikeDalley484835, whoever he might be, and Guy's Hospital sounds perfectly reasonable. I'm just reminding about the general view of these two sources. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:51, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Her 2018 entry in the ODNB (now sourced) gives her birthplace as Southwark, citing her birth certificate. This is surely good for us to now use. Crisso (talk) 21:49, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Her name again[edit]

Is her name 'De Paul' or 'de Paul', because I've seen it spelt both ways in the article; also where would it come on an alphabetical list? RASAM (talk) 20:18, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Her name is/was Lynsey de Paul (as per the article name). It would be spelt De Paul IF it was starting a sentence, otherwise it should always be rendered as de Paul. She is filed under 'P'. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:13, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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