Talk:Socialist Appeal (UK, 1992)

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Untitled[edit]

1) I am about to make some grammatical edits. The current text has such poor grammar it looks like a possible machine translation from another language. Someone might want to research copyright questions.

2) Revolutionary Communist Party (UK) is distinct from the contemporary party of that name and the article should make that clearer. -- Jmabel 10:20, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have restored the reference clarifying that "Revolutionary Communist Party" is not the contemporary RCP founded by Bob Avakian. They are small, but reasonably well known in left circles, and a reference in a contemporary document to the "Revolutionary Communist Party" without this qualification would be reasonably be presumed to refer to them (it's what I thought when I read an earlier version of this article and wondered why they were being described as Trotskyist. That's what got me to start editing this article in the first place.) Our article on them is at Revolutionary Communist Party, USA, but they are not specifically a US party: I met people from the UK chapter in the Nineties, at a broad-left conference here in Seattle. They put out a magazine called Living Marxism which, I gather, folded after a lawsuit. -- Jmabel 22:35, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

User:Warofdreams now informs me that the Living Marxism folks and Bob Avakian's organization were actually separate from one another, two unrelated RCPs besides the precursor to the Militant Tendency, not one. -- Jmabel 19:56, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

  • (cur) (last) . . 13:22, 20 Feb 2004 . . Jmabel (revert to last version by Warofdreams: an anon removed content without any explanation. I'm restoring; discussion welcome. Deletions need justifications.)
  • (cur) (last) . . 07:40, 20 Feb 2004 . . 81.138.53.73
  • (cur) (last) . . M 05:27, 8 Feb 2004 . . Warofdreams

If this had been an edit by a named contributor, I'd just have asked for explanation instead of reverting. (I'll try the IP's talk page, for what it may be worth) A few phrases were deleted. The deletion might have been a removal of bad information (I'm not expert on the Socialist Appeal group), but it certainly needs an explanation and some indication of what sources say the previous apparently reasonable information is wrong. -- Jmabel 21:27, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

founder and theoretical leader[edit]

Just to make clear that the Militant was founded by a committee led by Jimmy Deane, and not even Grant's selected works suggests he was the founder. In addition, from a purely NPOV, although Grant's role after the second world war was important, and whilst the Militant regularly lionised Grant practically until the split, (who did not object - indeed, he ocassionally modestly pointed out his role), theory in the growing Tendency was developed in discussion on the various bodies of the Militant Tendency. The expulsion claim is also disputed and not documented. I broke up the big para.

I think also the para begining "The split was due to ..." can go. the only thing its adds is that the Majority dispute the expusion claim, which I added, but it is not important.

Andysoh 21:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just a newspaper?[edit]

This article seems to put the socialist appeal as a newspaper first, when, having read their website, it seems to be a political organisation first and foremost that also publishes a newspaper. Rewording needed? Jamzze (talk) 10:12, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Political organisation is organised around the newspaper rather than being an organisation that happens to publish a newspaper Z.Dearg (talk) 15:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name Change?[edit]

The party seems to have renamed itself to Revolutionary Communist Party. The title of the article should in some way reflect this? 2.30.180.253 (talk) 17:34, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it hasn't done so just yet. I believe this was planned to be done in May? Genabab (talk) 16:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please decide if this is a new party or simply Socialist Appeal 2.0[edit]

I've gone through and drastically reduced the article's contents, as it was little more than copy-pasting from the Socialist Appeal article. If this article's focus is so indistinguishable from the former organisation than the question needs to be asked if the new "party" is notable enough to have its own article afresh or if it's better to simply retool the Socialist Appeal article itself with simply the section about its namechange. Rambling Rambler (talk) 22:20, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

agreed, I see no reason for the new article. As far as I can tell, this is just a rebranding. RedAuburn (talk) 14:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it’s worth having this page. SA was an organisation, not a political party, whereas this is a party. It’s an important distinguish that one was a political organisation whereas this is a party. Helper201 (talk) 16:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Helper201 I don't disagree there is a difference between the two concepts. But the question needs to be if there's enough new notable information to justify this article, or if it's better to "move" the Socialist Appeal article to the title of the new party and then add anything post-refounding as a new section of that article. Rambling Rambler (talk) 16:11, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is a need for a new article. and stop deleting valuable Information Splits 'n' Fusions (talk) 13:46, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not deleting "valuable information", it is preventing duplication of the Socialist Appeal, which goes against wikipedia guidelines. If people want this article to cover Socialist Appeal, then it's appropriate to instead merge the two. Rambling Rambler (talk) 15:08, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are deleting history part. because it tells the same story, go delete then half of the history part on Russia article because it tells the the story about ussr and russian empire. we need to restore it. and stop deleting it UnixBased (talk) 21:26, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am deleting it because it's a word for word duplicate of another article, which goes against guidelines. Comparing this situation to that of a summary of a nation that is nowhere near identical of a more detailed "history of Russia" one is ridiculous and you know it.
In fact this entire problem exists because of your actions, given originally the Socialist Appeal article was moved to the new name meaning there was no duplication only for you to go back, remove the redirect, and restore the old page.[1] Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They're clearly the same organisation.
It's the same reason SWP and the International Socialists are one article, for an example.
I'm sure there are other examples of organisations renaming themselves that didn't get a new article. 2A02:C7C:9B36:7D00:38DC:DB59:FE30:E6A5 (talk) 12:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can say with some inside knowledge of the party that the members and leaders generally consider it just a rebranding.
To my understanding, party announcements use the phrase "launching a new party" because the RCP is intended to be registered as an electoral party and participate in elections and such, as opposed to Socialist Appeal which was a newspaper and a section of the IMT.
Article by the international using a description more in-line with the continuation interpretation:
https://www.marxist.com/britain-revolution-festival-2023-the-communists-are-coming.htm#:~:text=For%20this%20reason%2C%20Rob,the%20Revolutionary%20Communist%20Party.
If the notoriety of the RCP far surpasses that of socialist appeal in the coming years, it will be most fitting to rename the original socialist appeal page to RCP and then have in the page a mention of when the name swap happened. But those are just my thoughts. Jojobigbobo (talk) 05:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Over reliance on first party sources[edit]

it looks like almost every single source here comes from the IMT or from Socialist Appeal itself. Surely this goes against Wikipedia's standards. 2A02:C7C:9B36:7D00:6129:FB9A:B0EF:B0C5 (talk) 13:43, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The party relaunching is something that would be hard to find coverage about from the BBC or some big source. I believe I've seen statements by other communist parties (like the CPGBML) that noted the change and proceeded to criticize the party, but I'm not sure if that's really raising the bar for sourcing standards. Jojobigbobo (talk) 05:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not entirely familiar with Wikipedia's standards but if the only sources for a political party's existence come from the party itself does it even warrant a Wikipedia page? 2A02:C7C:9B36:7D00:6129:FB9A:B0EF:B0C5 (talk) 09:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
like, if we allow this degree of first-party sources then at what point does wikipedis go from an encyclopedia to a directory of Trotskyist parties? 2A02:C7C:9B36:7D00:6129:FB9A:B0EF:B0C5 (talk) 09:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can propose that the articles be merged. Wellington Bay (talk) 11:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merger discussion[edit]

Should Socialist Appeal (Britain) be merged into this article? Why or why not? Wellington Bay (talk) 11:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article appears to have been initially "moved" from Socialist Appeal. A now blocked user then recreated the old article meaning we have one for each. Given that RCP is a merging of SA and another group I think the current situation is probably the best for now. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If there was a merger than I'd agree but there is nothing in the article about this. What is the group that SA merged with? Wellington Bay (talk) 21:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The party was founded out of predecessor organisations, Socialist Appeal and Revolution, in 2024."
It's in the lead, and on the subject's website. It's a combination of two IMT groups/publications to form a political party. It's a notable enough shift to warrant its own article. Rambling Rambler (talk) 22:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is/was Revolution? The Scottish section? Something else? Is there a link about this? Wellington Bay (talk) 22:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Revolution wasn't a separate organisation it was just Socialist Appeal's Scottish newspaper. According to the Socialist Appeal (Britain) article: "Following the Scottish independence referendum in which Scots voted to retain the union with the rest of the United Kingdom, the International Marxist Tendency launched a separate Scottish periodical called Revolution, which analyses events in Scotland, and puts forward a Marxist position in relation to the Scottish independence movement. Revolution's masthead carries the slogan "For a Scottish workers' republic and world socialist revolution!"" - so if there's a merger it's only a merger of the two publications but not of two separate organisations.
I can't find any reference on any IMT website about the RCP being a "merger" of two organisations. Unless there is one calling this a merger is original research. Wellington Bay (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"so if there's a merger it's only a merger of the two publications but not of two separate organisations."
Whether it's a merger of two organisations or two publications, or one organisation and an until then distinct publication, it's still unique enough to justify a new article. There is no source present to confirm that Revolution was a part of Socialist Appeal, only that both were separate members of IMT (it is common for there to be separate organisations between England & Wales and Scotland).
"I can't find any reference on any IMT website about the RCP being a "merger" of two organisations."
You yourself found one for Socialist Appeal and then used it to suggest Revolution was a part of them funnily enough:
"The new paper sees a merging of the forces around Socialist Appeal in England and Wales with those of Revolution in Scotland, in the fight for the overthrow of capitalism across these islands and worldwide."[2]
That right there is an explicit existing separation between the two groups/organisations/newspapers/whatever-term-you-find-apt Rambling Rambler (talk) 02:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"There is no source present to confirm that Revolution was a part of Socialist Appeal, only that both were separate members of IMT" and there is no source for them being separate organisations - particularly as the Socialist Appeal article has always been titled Socialist Appeal (Britain) rather than "Socialist Appeal (England & Wales). Wellington Bay (talk) 03:05, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's literally the quote above and I've re-instered that it's a merger with new sources to add confirmation. It doesn't matter what Socialist Appeal was titled, there is evidence it is two groups. Rambling Rambler (talk) 11:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The IMT is opposed to Scottish independence the same way they are opposed to Quebec independence. Hence, even though they have or had Quebec and Scottish publications Scottish members of the IMT were members of Socialist Appeal and Quebecois IMT members were members of the Canadian Fightback group. But we are getting into the weeds and even though this actually is how the groups functioned internally this has been obfuscated in their literature so there's little point in my arguing it since barring the group becoming significant and attracting scholarly or journalistic study what I'm saying can't be verified by published citations - so I'll agree to the pretense that these were separate organisations. But for clarity the article should say these were the English/Welsh and Scottish entities respectively. Wellington Bay (talk) 12:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly Socialist Appeal's geographic boundaries aren't clear. It wouldn't exactly be out of step with the mess that is far-left organising for there to be an all-Britain group like SA and then a Scotland only organisation/publication/two people in a house somewhere group called Revolution. For now it's best to just leave specificity in the body that Revolution is a Scotland only group (as that's clear) and leave Socialist Appeal vague.
And frankly the geographic specificity doesn't matter too much, you did (without discussion) move this page to "(UK, 2024)" from "(Britain)" even though IMT support Irish Unification and Northern Ireland was therefore part of the IMT Ireland group (Irish Marxists IIRC). Rambling Rambler (talk) 13:50, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you check this page's history you'll see someone initially moved Socialist Appeal (Britain) to Revolutionary Communist Party (UK, 2024) but that was reversed as premature. It was later moved to Revolutionary Communist Party (Britain) presumably because a non-admin couldn't move it to Revolutionary Communist Party (UK, 2024) since that was now a redirect. Someone then subsequently recreated the Socialist Appeal (Britain) article post-move (which really shouldn't have been done without a discusion). I requested a move from Revolutionary Communist Party (Britain) to Revolutionary Communist Party (UK, 2024) for the sake of consistency with the articles on previous organisations with the same name. If you wish to move it to Revolutionary Communist Party (Britain) you can put in a move request. Wellington Bay (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wellington Bay This page clearly serves a purpose.
Socialist Appeal was an entryist group within the Labour party, synonymous with the newspaper of the same name.
the RCP is an open political party with a noticeably different political identity. the two groups employ different methods.
The Revolutionary Communist Party will also see the merging together of the forces previously organised around the paper Revolution Scotland (revolution.scot) and the forces previously around SA. it's a different entity.
the content of the two pages is also different. one deals thoroughly with the history of the Militant split etc, whereas this one is mostly about the party's very recent history.
I think a merger of the pages will only confuse people. Tedgrant1917 (talk) 01:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That being the case, can I ask why you changed the name of the Socialist Appeal article and usurped it into an RCP article, instead of just creating a new article off the bat for RCP when - as you say - "the RCP is an open political party with a noticeably different political identity"?
The edit history of these articles is an absolute disaster zone.Hemmers (talk) 11:55, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hemmers because I'm not a wiki nerd and I don't understand all this procedural bs haha. it's not that deep Tedgrant1917 (talk) 12:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Tedgrant1917 Not sure the procedure is that deep. If you want to create an article about a new organisation then that's what you do. You don't repurpose an existing article for a sort-of-historically-related organisation/publication and then rebrand it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . You can have an article for the old thing and also the new thing without having to overwrite the old thing. EDIT: It would also be helpful if you could create your user page and declare your connection to RCP for transparency, since you appear to have a connection to the organisation, which would would present a Conflict of Interest (for which we nerds also have a policy). Hemmers (talk) 12:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]