Talk:Thracian language

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Comments[edit]

To do: besides rewriting/improving some sections: add images of the inscriptions; put the Thracian lexical elements in Greek script for those that are from Greek texts, etc., indicate primary sources, etc., add a ==Reference== section. A language map showing distribution would also be useful. IPA for PIE reconstructions. 07:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

This article is in serious need of references, that is why the phrases "Some scholars" "some Thracologists" are common: i don't have their names. 12:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

"Spoken in ancient times" - what does this mean? --217.22.89.209 00:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC) Kate[reply]

Spoken prior to the beginning of the Middle Ages, appx. 560 A.D. 50.111.29.1 (talk) 00:28, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thracian and Dacian[edit]

The article says: Excluding Dacian, whose status as a Thracian language is disputed1, and the footnote says that This is confirmed among others by Benjamin W. Fortson in his Indo-European Language and Culture, when he states that "all attempts to relate Thracian to Phrygian, Illyrian, or Dacian ... are ... purely speculative" (p. 90). "Confirmed among other by..." Who are the others that state that? Is the Romanian and undoubtably 99% of the foreign historiography wrong, and has been wrong for decades now in clasifying Dacian as a Thracian language? And what is with this tone: "whose status as a Thracian language is disputed" Disputed? Disputed by whome? By two nerdy wikipedia editors? Greier 19:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed by those mentioned. U have to understand that you cannot push your POV. find sources and add them, for Christ's sake! btw, in the past Albanian was considered as a Hellenic language... And even further back in time, Latin was considered a Hellenic dialect. so, do not present past theories as if they are still right.... Same times they may be not. Hectorian 19:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A nerd and a dork is one who barges into the article and starts screwing things up based on his prejudices. In this case, my opinion or your opinion is not the issue. A survey of the literature will show the situation. My opinion? Possibly Dacian and Thracian were close enough that in retrospect they can be viewed as one language. Conversely, they may have been quite different. And something that hasn't been covered in this article yet because we need sourced information: it may be that what we now think of as the "Thracian language" was a number of distinct languages that have been lumped together. There was probably a lot of language interference between several Indo-European languages, as well as non-Indo-European languages in ancient Thrace and its environs. 69.106.206.100 01:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
However, while Dacian and Thracian are commonly treated as separate languages (though sometimes as dialects), I think it is fair to say those who think that Dacian and Thracian were not closely related are currently a small minority? 69.106.206.100 01:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it certainly is not "fair to say those who think that Dacian and Thracian were not closely related are currently a small minority", on the contrary, saying that those who doubt this affirmation are currently a small minority is fair to say. Why? Simply compare the Aromanian dialects and Romanian, and you will see a common trunk of language that is not to be explain solely by the roman influence. The connection predates romanization. But more important so, doubt should be injected into the minds of historians who lightheartedly mix "languages" and "population groups". Reality is that little is known about the akinness of the two. Example? Celts were in Ireland, Celts reached all the way to Dalmatia and the Panonic plains. ALL KINDS of Celts, they had their own names in ancient sources, then they were described as Celts - but all the written data we have hardly helps one give an answer to the question whether there was something that one may describe as THE Celtic language? Considering reminiscents of Celtic, from Irish to Welsh and the strongly romanized Romansch - all in the western part of Celtic civilization, one must certainly doubt the unity of these language. The next question to ask is whether a Thracic tribe living next to the Boii - one of the East-most Celts - spoke a language more distant from the one of the Boii, then the Celts in Ireland spoke? You see the problem I hope!! Indeed, the concept of thracian language cannot be defined more accurately than saying that it was a common pattern of the languages or dialects spoken by tribes which were described as Thracic. After comming down to earth in this way, it becomes obvious that those who deny to the "Dacian language" the attribute of be one aspect of "thracian language" cannot do this for other reason than personal taste. Why? Because, so far we have north of Rome and Greece only these two major GROUPS of people: Thracian and Celts (the Ilyrians are admitted to be some relatives of the Thracians too, which is the reason why they are not Greek). So the question is then: do we introduce an additional group for the Dacians, to honnour them? Or for the political interests of some small states? It is certainly not in the interest of understanding or knowledge. In lack of better, I erase the confusing phrase.PredaMi (talk) 15:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would add that Boia is an isolated recent historian, of good culture but explicite tendency to go own ways. I would take his writings more as an abrupt countering to possibly narrow views about Romanian history in his own country: an exagerated polemic thus, which may have its value precisely for opposing some exagerated position in the opposite direction. But this makes is by far not a theory yet. In lack of something better, forget it.PredaMi (talk) 15:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian cognates[edit]

Unless they are exclusive to Bulgarian or whatever Slavic language is the case, place the Proto-Slavic cognate. For example, "ostru" is also in Slovak, "ostry", etc. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 21:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Poltyn[edit]

Is poltyn attested or is that extracted from Poltymbria? Till I find that out I removed poltyn from the list. Lisa the Sociopath (talk) 22:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Inscription translation[edit]

«ROLISTE NEAS NERENEA TILTEAN ES KOAR AZEADOME ANT ILEZ UP TAMIĒ ERA ZELTA»
Can be reconstructed such:
«RULLISTE NIES NEREŅA TILTAN, IZ KUR ĀZIEDAMI ANT ĪLES UPI, TAMĪ IRA ZELTA»
Knowing Latvian and Curonian, we can see understandable words:
roliste = rulliste! - 'roll!' > 'go/ride!'
neas = nies - 'down'
nerenea = Nerenis - the bridge name, 'Nere' - the river name, nerti - 'to dive'
tiltean = tiltan - 'bridge'
es = iz - 'from'
koar = kur/kura - 'where/which'
azeadome = āziedami/aiziedami - 'going behind/from'
ant = ant - 'to/till'
ilez = Īles - Yle - the river name
Up = upe - 'river'
tamiē = tamī - 'there/in it'
era = ira - 'is'
zelta = zeltan - 'gold'
So, the full translation could be:
«Go down till Nerena bridge, going from which till Yle river, there (in it) is gold»
Roberts7 19:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


Quite a few linguists are indeed intrigued by the apparent Balto-Thracian correspondences, even speculating a large Balto-Thracian linguistic continuum from Baltic to Balkans, only later taken over by a new, more advanced dialetc - Slavic. Hxseek (talk) 10:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot see why someone would put such a thing on a ring, but we are not here to judge the possibilities. If you have a reference for that translation please include it, otherwise we cannot simply add it like that. Fkitselis (talk) 09:49, 12 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tsiringanos[edit]

I've just marked as original research a new addition made by Tsiringanos (talk · contribs). It admits to being by an 'independent researcher' and is not followed up with a reference. It's style is clearly non-academic. I'll inform the user, and see if we can shed some light on it. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 16:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the section since the editor has in fact identified it as original research. Mr. Tsiringanos should tell us where his independent study has been published before it is added again. Aramgar (talk) 02:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bria not polis[edit]

The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume 3, Part 2: The Assyrian and Babylonian Empires and Other States of the Near East, from the Eighth to the Sixth Centuries BC by John Boardman, I. E. S. Edwards, E. Sollberger, and N. G. L. Hammond ,ISBN 0521227178,1992,page 612: "According to Strabo(vii.6.1cf.st.Byz.446.15) the Thracian -bria word meant polis but it is an inaccurate translation"Megistias (talk) 17:01, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More sticking to the facts[edit]

Why do we state "indo-european" if we don't know enough of this language. Why do we link Thracian to Dacian? is there any proof? If we know such few things about Thracian (hydronims, kings names and few words) why don't we just state that PROBABLY this is an "indo-european" language PROBABLY linked to Dacian? Abdulka (talk) 13:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.58.11.183 (talk) 18:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

because there are evidences that Thracian language was Indo-European and not Semitic.

The relationships between Thracian and Dacian languages are not clear. Some authors have accepted the idea, that both languages were closely related and formed a dialect continuum. Another group of scientists does not share this view. Because of that in Wikipedia is an distinct article about the Dacian language, where this problem has been discussed. This article was created with the idea to view only the Thracian dialect. Jingby (talk) 08:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The idea of a language continuum makes logical sense. The ideea of declaring distinctions between languages, at the luck and pleasure of some researcher with political agenda does not. Why? Simply because at the level of close to zero knowledge about the (to present knowledge) unwritten languages of Europe two milenia ago does not suffice to make any distinctive statement in addition to what we know from ancient sources - and the ancient sources made certain attribution of long lists of TRIBES to larger FAMILIES. These families are, roughly speaking Thracians and Celts - the Dacians being often enough referred to as relative to Thracians, having also participated in common unions of tribes, e.g. under Buerebista and, it is really absurd to decide to split out a Dacian language. Are you aware of how little we know about Celtic languages, where every western sage assumes to know a lot? Do we know at all if the Boii spoke "Celtic", or were much better at ease discussing with some near by Dacian then with a Gaul, for instance? So what IS language (unwritten) 2000 years ago, is the first question to ask, before making up splittings.PredaMi (talk) 15:32, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The word 'bounos',hill,mound[edit]

This word is interesting.In modern Greek there is the word βουνό vuno', which means mountain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitsof (talkcontribs) 16:17, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Linguists would have to find it interesting to be significant. There are all kinds of modified loanwords and coincidences in languages. HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:48, 7 June 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan[reply]
Actually HammerFilm, my apologies: this is what the Thracologist actually says: Βασίβουνον Beševl. PKN p.139: pentru prima parte, Βασί-, majoritatea cercetătorilor propun numele latin Bassus, deşi transcrierile procopiene ale numelor latine respectă consoanele duble(v. infra Βασσίδινα Exemple). Ne-am putea gândi şi la un *Βουσί-(v. Βουσίπαρα) cu confuzia α/ου. Al doilea formant este cel mai probabil grecul(=trac?) βούνον "măgură,deal". Nelocalizabil.---I'll translate: βούνον is a Greek word, attested in Greek pretty well, there is even a Greek mythological figure named Bounos. Olteanu ventures a suggestion, not a commitment or an etymological study, that the word may also be Thracian, maybe even of Thracian origin. I have seen proposed etymologies of βούνον that do not mention Thracian as the source. Possible Thracian origin, but there is no real evidence yet for a Thracian origin for βούνον besides two Thracian toponyms in Procopius: Βασίβουνον and Kasibonon. There is also the possibility that the word was part of a Balkan sprachbund. 76.208.172.115 (talk) 04:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


I will agree with Kitsof. βουνό is a very common word denoting smaller mountains, while for high mountains the word όρος is used. I have never taken a closer look to this, but I am sure someone has written something about it. Otherwise, I would say it is a weird miss.

Fkitselis (talk) 07:04, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Ezerovo ring.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion[edit]

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Is there anyone that has a photo personally taken? It is really pity not to have a picture of the ring. Fkitselis (talk) 11:43, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It just needs a fair use rationale added to it. --Codrin.B (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thracian and Latin[edit]

Some sources as Horace [1],Ovid [2] and Sextus Rufus [3] showed similarities between Latin and Thracian. They were in contact with thracians and exposed their opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.18.215 (talk) 08:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please be more specific about those similarities? From the scarse material and onomastics, there's absolutely no similarity to Latin, apart from their common Indo-European background. Fkitselis (talk) 23:10, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fkitelis, you realize that your question goes in the wrong direction! The latins mentioned talk about paesants that speak a hard to understand vulgar latin, but with whom they could lead conversations - while they were speaking their own language. Prior to romanization. To my knowledge they do not give lists of words as you would wish, since their thinking was different from ours - they did not look at themselves as scientists leaving linguistic material to posterity, but as living trustable humans who express their experience. Of course, historians of today who do not like the kind of conclusions that may be drawn from these contemporary testimonies - intelligent, very alive people speaking to other living people - find all reasons to denigrate the trustability of the source. But they would not mention the fact that, compared to those living testimonies, the knowledge base for their own deductions and theories is at least as adventurous. Take it or leave it - however, if you leave it, you must have a good ground!PredaMi (talk) 15:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Horace, "Odes" I, 20.
  2. ^ Ovid - Trist, II, 188 - 189
  3. ^ Sextus Rufus, Breviarium, C. VIII, cf. Bocking Not, Dign. II, 6

THRACIANS SPOKE A GREEK DIALECT.[edit]

THRACIANS SPOKE A GREEK DIALECT...IF YOU KNOW EVEN MODERN GREEK...YOU CAN UNDERSTAND MOST OF THE THRACIANS WORDS THAT ARE DISCRIBED IN THIS WIKI.

ANCIENT GREEK WORDS WORDS THAT MOST ARE USED EVEN TODAY IN GREECE. alopekis = ΑΛΩΠΕΚΙΣ = ΚΑΡΑΦΛΟΣ kalamindar = ΚΑΛΑΜΙΔΑ manteia = ΜΑΝΤΕΙΑ pera = ΠΟΛΙΣ = ΑΚΟΜΑ ΣΤΗΝ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΥΠΟΛΗ ΥΠΑΡΧΕΙ Η ΠΕΡΙΟΧΗ ΠΕΡΑ. rhomphaia = ΡΟΜΦΑΙΑ = ΤΟ ΞΙΦΟΣ ΠΟΥ ΚΡΑΤΑΝΕ ΟΙ ΑΓΓΕΛΟΙ ΣΤΗΝ ΟΡΘΟΔΟΞΙΑ ktistai = ΚΤΙΣΤΑΙ

ETC...ETC...AND THE RESTS WORDS ARE ANCIENT GREEK WORDS. CONCLUSION...OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THE GREEKNESS OF THRACIANS OR BE BLIND FOR EVER...

REALLY...DID THE CURENCY OF THRACIANS WHICH IS THE ...DRACHMA... (TETRADRACHMON = 4 DRACHMAS) REMINDS SOMETHING TO ANYONE?.... OH YES....THE GREEK DRACHMA.... WELL...DIONYSOS...THE GREEK GOD OF THRACIANS...REMINDS SOMETHING TO SOMEONE? ΓΕΙΑ ΣΑΣ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.30.236.134 (talk) 10:47, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No need to shout please. You have to understand that many Indo-European languages are reminiscent of each other which is normal. Thracian sometimes might remind of Greek, but in many cases it doesn't. The personal names of Thracians are completely different than standard Greek names. Fkitselis (talk) 20:52, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
greek made borrowings from many languages, they borrowed the thracian gods.. proto indo european languages went feom ukraine-romania-bulgaria-greece and yugoslavia. its a migratory progression which the early indo europeans took and their languages are condemned to be similar, as romanian has some 100-300 basic words which are in albanian and they are 100% certified to be of dacian/thracian origin
also ancient authors talk about dacian and thracian speaking a mutually inteligeble language
we know also that many mercenaries in the Alexander Macedons army were thracian.. and we know he settled at the end of his conquest with his soldiers in norht pakistan, from which 4000 tracian mercenaries. and now the Burushashy language as its spoken there has hunderds of romanian words same meaning and pronunciations, which in romanian they are classified as unknown origin. its 100% sure that those are of the dacian/thracian group. the word for example "Fulg" meaning snowflake
studies on this burushasky language are a novelty that was discovered in 2019 and bulgarian linguist + a romanian linguist (Mihai Vinereanu, professor of linguistics at new york) study it.. 2A02:2F0F:B014:FF00:4889:975A:3E07:58D (talk) 12:46, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Celtic briga[edit]

Shouldn't the Celtic word briga be listed as a cognate for bria, "town" or "settlement"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.78.19.86 (talk) 00:52, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Romanian language...[edit]

At the "wild pumpkin"...the romanian (but also bulgarian and serbian) word for watermellon is a bustrofedon: "lubenița”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigshotnews (talkcontribs) 00:14, 10 February 2015 (UTC) At the „bolinthos”...the romanian word ”bolund/bolând” (meaning ”wild crazy”) is an anthonym for ”blând” (meaning ”gentle”/calm”), and is considered similar with hungarian ”bolond”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigshotnews (talkcontribs) 00:20, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Irrational/wrong cognates[edit]

Some cognates to the Thracian lexical items are not correct (for instance "manteia" wrongly connected to German "Mandel", which comes from Late Latin "amandula", itself from Ancient Greek αμύγδαλη. The same word gives "almond" in English, "mandle" in Czech, "миндаль" in Russian) and the situation with some cognates is a bit absurd, this is particularly true for Slavic cognates. Sometimes 3-4 different Slavic languages are mentioned for the same word without a good reason, sometimes only Serbian and/or Bulgarian are given for a common slavic root (this can be misleading, since it gives the idea that they're substrate words); I'd propose to put just the Old Church Slavonic word or the proto-Slavic one, adding specific Slavic language, when they're more interesting or they're true substrate words. --*Weyd-tor (talk) 11:40, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Map[edit]

The Thracian linguistic territory and toponym "para" occupied northeastern Serbia, see page 90, 91--130.204.227.29 (talk) 22:42, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Baltic theory created by a chauvinist who sees Slavic people as slaves and Albanoidic in origin!!![edit]

How absurd and crazy it sounds I can not even imagine, yet 80% of this article is based on his imagination from the year 1992. Also this theory is based on less extreme theory formed in 1969 by Ivan Duridanov. Long before proper DNA tests on haplogroups and aDNA and mtDNA were done. Those were the times of pure speculations and wishful thinking in science of populations and migrations. Anyway if there was a BALTO-SLAVIC group or even Indo-European or Satem group in Dacia or Thracia then claiming it for yourself as Slavic or Baltic is senseless, because if there are both Slavic and Baltic cognate words in Thracian then it could simply mean that it was closer to those languages than it was for example to Germanic languages and simply proves that it was an Indo-European language. Saying that it was for sure Baltic and to prove it start making new scientific theories about some Albanian slaves is truly psychotic mania. He literally wrote:

"Some of these items are Thracian and Dacian words which the ancestors of the Albanians learned from their Baltoidic Thracian and Dacian masters."

"The emasculated nature of Slavic from the viewpoint of old Indo-European vocabulary, that is, the lack in Slavic of words like vyras, aner 'man' and smakras, the old masculine word for "beard," attests to the servile status of their ancestors, the Albanoidic Pre-Slavs"

"Assuming all this to be true, the dearth of ancient Albanoidic place names, be they Illyrian, Albanian, or Slavic, is no surprise. Surely Pre-Slavs and possibly early Slavs escaped from Baltoidic masters where and when they could as did their Southern Albanoidic cousins from Dacians and Thracians. And these runaways were not likely to give names to prominent geographic features which might aid their Baltoidic captors in finding them. It is ironic that now the dominant languages in both the Balkans and the Baltic has for the last 300 years tended to be Slavic, that is, Albanoidic rather than Baltoidic. In the Balkans, since approximately the seventh century, A.D., Baltoidic Thracian and Dacian even ceased to exist while Non-Baltoidic Albanian still survives only because the ancient prehistoric ancestors of the people who speak it managed to escape and stay free from their form Baltoidic masters."

The only source given for this is just ONE link in the article: http://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm Nelias (talk) 00:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Section on "Remnants" Riddled with Errors[edit]

Where do the etymological explanations in the "Remnants" section come from? They are highly erroneous. And where they are not, they are heavily idiosyncratic. Almost no Devanagari string is even correct. Casually, a connection is made between Hittites (Nešili), the Nāsatyas and then "Nāsatya" is written "nasataya" in Devanagari. "vala" is written "vaḹ" in devanagari and then casually linked with Veles or a nonsense root "vo (wo)". Whoever wrote this, has no knowledge of any kind of linguistic detail. I suggest this be largely removed.