Talk:Leninism

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Confusing initial use of "Bolshevik"[edit]

The following sentence in the introduction occurs with any antecedent explanation of the term "Bolshevik": "As the vanguard party, the Bolsheviks viewed history through the theoretical framework of dialectical materialism, which sanctioned political commitment to the successful overthrow of capitalism, and then to instituting socialism; and, as the revolutionary national government, to realize the socio-economic transition by all means." This is a non sequitur since the relationship between Leninism and the Bolsheviks has so far not been established. Jojalozzo (talk) 21:04, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

With, or without? (You have a typo of omission in your first sentence.) Was Kisevalter Nash? (talk) 22:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source[edit]

This might be useful to someone looking to edit the article:

1

2

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--BunnyyHop (talk) 22:44, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of the term[edit]

@BunnyyHop. - [1] - yes, of course it was Stalin - see Foundations of Leninism. My very best wishes (talk) 04:55, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It was Stalin who pushed for the use of that term which was then accepted collectively. Vikram Vincent 05:03, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Stalin might've popularized the term, but we can't assert that, or that it was him who created it, out of a lecture, because it would be WP:OR — we always need need to see what WP:REliable sources say. On the article, it's stated the following: «As a political-science term, Lenin's theory of proletarian revolution entered common usage at the fifth congress of the Communist International (1924), when Grigory Zinoviev applied the term Leninism to denote "vanguard-party revolution."»

The source I sent on the edit says there's conflict on the creation of the term — maybe that should be added? --BunnyyHop (talk) 06:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I basically agree with VV but I think the term "first coined" would be better replaced by "popularized" or something similar. I agree with BH re Zinoviev seems to be the first person to use the term publicly.  // Timothy :: talk  07:11, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sources show fifth Congress of communist international as June 17 - July 8, 1924, which is after Stalin's set of lectures in April 26 and 30, May 9, 11, 14, 15 and 18, 1924 per Foundations of Leninism. Vikram Vincent 07:18, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • While others used this term before Stalin, it is solely Stalin who is credited by historians for creating the personality cult of Lenin, which he needed to create his own personality cult (as the only faithful follower of Lenin). He made a famous speech after death of Lenin (using wording borrowed from Orthodox religion like "Zavety"), proposed to build Lenin's Mausoleum (many bolsheviks were shocked by the idea to place atheist Lenin to the mausoleum like a pharaoh), and declared "Marxism-Leninism" the official religion-like teaching. There excellent books about it by Abdurakhman Avtorkhanov, a historian-witness. My very best wishes (talk) 16:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My very best wishes, while this is true, the term Marxism-Leninism is different from the term Leninism. --BunnyyHop (talk) 20:06, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Since you apparently know Russian, please check version of this page on ruwiki, i.e. ru:Ленинизм. These subjects are better described there. It directly cites the relevant work by Stalin: Термин «ленинизм» введён в оборот И. В. Сталиным в классическом определении (1926): «Ленинизм есть марксизм эпохи империализма и пролетарской революции». Hence it was Stalin who connected "Marxism" and "Leninism". This is easy to check. "A Dictionary of 20th-Century Communism" by Silvio Pons and ‎Robert Service tells practically the same. My very best wishes (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, sure, this «Ленинизм есть марксизм эпохи империализма и пролетарской революции[1][13].» might be the classic definition, but we can't directly cite Stalin nor assert that "Термин «ленинизм» введён в оборот И. В. Сталиным". I only found sources for Stalin's speeches. This reads like an article from someone with some knowledge about Soviet theory of Communism. «Теоретическая основа ленинизма и марксизма — материалистическая диалектика, что означает их тождество по существу», this, for instance, doesn't make any sense.
But yes, «Marxism-Leninism» as a term was first institutionalised by J. Stalin.
--BunnyyHop (talk) 02:22, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I agree that none of that makes sense. All these "works" by Stalin and other communist leaders are newspeak, nonsense, propaganda. My very best wishes (talk) 02:42, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So could we write that "The term Leninism appears in literature first in the lectures of Stalin .... though it was accepted by the CPSU in 1922"? Vikram Vincent 03:49, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If so, we should say it was used (by whom and how?) in 1922. You are very welcome to describe this matter on the page, with proper references. No objections from me whatsoever. My very best wishes (talk) 04:46, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, per My very best wishes. The lectures are only mentioned at Leninism#Further_reading, have you considered adding it to Leninism#See_also? As a side note, that book's article is barely past a stub, I'd recommend you to work on it if you have any interest. --BunnyyHop (talk) 06:42, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As pointed out in the revert edit summary "52.. There are several contradictory theories on the origin of the term “Leninism” (see footnote 25). However, regardless of the origin, the Party accepted it as an official doctrinal term in 1922."Ref: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.14318/hau7.2.021#hau7.2.021_fn52 So citing this and the fact that Stalin's work appears first in chronological order the sentence could be phrased as, "The term Leninism was accepted as a doctrinal phrase by the CPSU in 1922(ref) but appears first in publically available literature through Stalin's lecture series of April-May 1924(ref)." The phrasing can definitely be cleaned up to make it more precise. Vikram Vincent 07:07, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It should be mentioned that Leninism was adopted as a term by the CPSU in 1922, but we can't just insert that about Stalin's lectures without any reliable source, otherwise, it would be WP:OR. For instance - now rereading it, that source states the following: «January 1923, one year prior to Lenin’s death and despite his objections, the term “Leninism” was introduced into public circulation[52]». --BunnyyHop (talk) 12:32, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think quoting publication date comes under OR. It is like quoting the date of an article etc which is common place. I think the part where Lenin objects to the phrase also needs to be accounted for as a matter of historical record. Vikram Vincent 13:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, no, it's not OR. OR would be linking it to something else. As MVBW, no objections from me whatsoever. --BunnyyHop (talk) 15:18, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Vincentvikram, I made some changes to your addition, but (per summary) overall I think it was an improvement. No objection to rv, ce, depending your thoughts.
I think the rest of the lead needs work; it wanders and needs focus. Roughly speaking I think after the first paragraph defining where it comes from, there should be a concise defintion highlighting the key elements of Leninism and how it modifies Marxism when used in the hypenated form. This could be follow with a summary of the other key elements from the article body.
Working on a good lead will provide a semi-blueprint for article bo follow; the article body would benefit from tightening along the lines of the SUMMARY style, with non-essential details moved into their respective article.
I think if the above is worked on, the article would be a tighter, cleaner, easier to read and understand article. Once its stable it can go to GOCE for polishing and the to a GA review.  // Timothy :: talk  14:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Vincentvikram:, due to typo in the above ping.  // Timothy :: talk 
Thanks TimothyBlue. I was going to start a new section to discuss the elements of the lead. Vikram Vincent 15:26, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, I replaced the phrase that stated Stalin introduced it into public speech because the journal source states the term entered in «public circulation» on January 1923, while Stalin's speech was delivered in March 1924. Cheers! --BunnyyHop (talk) 22:19, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BunnyyHop ok. The conflict arises because around the time Lenin became ill and even before, Stalin was "the Party" and had already been making decisions for a while. Lenin tells Trotsky to oppose the concentration of powers with the Secy but Trotsky ignores it and eventually falls prey. We could use a source showing Stalin as the power centre and thus lead to a claim that it was Stalin who pushed for the usage of Leninism as part of the power concentration process. However, this is a longer piece not fit for the lead but maybe the History section. Vikram Vincent 04:32, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BunnyyHop I feel that instead of reverting the whole sentence, just the correction could have been made as this would have contributed to incremental development of the idea. Vikram Vincent 04:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! If there's any connection between those two, scholars might've already published about it. I didn't revert everything, I corrected the sentence changing "The term Leninism was accepted as part of CPSU vocabulary and doctrine around 1922, despite objections from Lenin. The term entered the public vocabulary after Stalin's April–May 1924 lecture series delivered at the Sverdlov University." to "The term Leninism was accepted as part of CPSU's vocabulary and doctrine around 1922, and in January 1923, despite objections from Lenin, it entered the public vocabulary." --BunnyyHop (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! Cool.. Missed that Vikram Vincent 04:52, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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