Talk:Gaucho

Wardrobe malfunction

The description for chiripá corresponds to gaucho bombachas. I've also added the correct meaning of chiripá.

See DRAE (Dictionary of the Real Academia Española, in Spanish): Chiripá and Pantalón Bombacho

Also in Spanish: Chiripá and Bombachas.

Several sources (for example, the last one above) cite that the bombachas were British imports from Turkey, it is worth mentioning?

Ejrrjs 00:15, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning, I love stuff like that... -- Jmabel | Talk 01:31, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Will you add those references to the article or should I? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:33, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

I'll do it Ejrrjs 08:14, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Done. Here there is another secondary source (in Spanish, 1st paragraph). It would be nice to add the Turkish name for the bombachas. Ejrrjs 11:17, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

UCSB

Why would anyone reading about gauchos want to know that it happens to be the mascot of UCSB? This seems to me to be appropriate to mention at University of California, Santa Barbara, but not here. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Ejrrjs | What? 22:07, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have removed accordingly. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:22, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Why is it appropriate to mention the mascot in the FIFA World Cup, but not at UCSB? Ar57 4 July 2005 09:23 (UTC)

Because the former is significantly related to Argentina, while the latter is an absolutely arbitrary symbol. But I, personally, wouldn't mind seeing it gone as well.-- Jmabel | Talk July 4, 2005 17:38 (UTC)

I added a 'Modern Influences' section (mostly to get 'gaucho pants' in without giving the main article too many asides) and now it seemed reasonable to add the UCSB reference back in. Robbyslaughter 15:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

The gaucho isn't

name for an occupation

has same mistake.

No, you can have gauchos of any ethniticity; e.g. "Los gauchos judíos" (The Jewish Gauchos), a novel by Alberto Gerchunoff.

Ejrrjs | What? 06:34, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But they were minority in the gaucho siciety, weren't they? --Ypacaraí 13:16, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

Well, they used to live in their own Colonias, so it depends on where the census is made :-)

I could also mention the black gauchos, such as the moreno killed by Martín Fierro. My point is: gauchos were either mestizos or criollos (or even black or mulattos) and did not have any specific "racial" distinction from the inhabitants of the cities. Of course they shared a specific culture, which can be still enjoyed on special occasions (such as Heritage Day, November 10th). They were "long distance" herders and that job is not required any longer. Ejrrjs | What? 18:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uh sorry, I used the word "ethnic" w/o knowing it includes "racial" meaning. Of course I read (translated) "Martin Fierro". I meant in above comment that they shared cultural character, so they shouldn't be considered as some sort of occupation and could be considered as a nation. And this nation was suppressed and mistreated like Jose Hernandez described in "Martin Fierro". Much later, after hordes of european immigrants had shared the pampas safely, the specific culture is now only used as touristic attractions. Isn't it? So I think the difinition in this article isn't correct. --Ypacaraí 03:03, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)

But sharing a cultural character a nation does not make. The first reason is, they didn't even try to do it, so it is a counterfactual statement (see, instead, Rio Grande do Sul, which was an independent Republic for a while). Secondly, a shared culture seems to be a precondition for nation building (Ernst Gellner:Nations and Nationalism, Cornell University Press, 1983) but is not enough (nation of skaters, of surfers, of nerds??) (...to be continued...) Ejrrjs | What? 18:48, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But I'm using the word "nation" as a group of people sharing same culture, like creole. --Ypacaraí 23:48, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)

For me the argentine gauchos are an ethnic group. They have their "own names", their "own music", their "own women" (las chinitas), their own clothing, their own food, their own house styles (ranchos), Etc., I don't think that gauchos are the equivalent for cowboys, it's just for Walt Disney cartoon?.

The jewish gauchos weren't "gauchos" they were called so for the rural life of them. --Vokoder 20:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

HaHa, argentine gauchos a ethnic group!!. They have their "own Names", their "own music", their "own women", etc, etc, Sorry but is a great mistake, you don't know nothing about the argentine or the gauchos, first, the names are exactly like the others in the entire argentine, the national food is the Asado, an every people this food, the music is commonly know like "Folklore" (more of 800 different types/class of music styles) and every people singing and dancing this music, you know Mercedes Sosa?, Atahualpa Yupanqui?, you understan? i.e. my brother is a gaucho but i am not, why? simple, my brother work in a rural establishment and him take part of this Old Life Style. Yes, this is the word, "Old -but still present- Life Style" 190.178.238.13 (talk) 00:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)Hernán

UCSB

I've retained a brief mention of the gaucho being the mascot of UCSB, but cut this longer passage:

Also, the official mascot of the University of California, Santa Barbara. The gaucho itself is only represented by a black, zoro-type mask although there are occasional appearances by the "phantom," an alumn who returns to basketball games to cheer the team on, along with the rowdy (and often intoxicated) pep club, the gaucho locos.

If someone wants to start an article on the gaucho as icon or in popular culture, this (with the spelling fixed) would presumably belong there. - Jmabel | Talk 20:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

How about Santa Catarina

Is well know fact that Santa Catarina, RS neighbour's state, does host some Gaúchos. And also in the Guerra dos Farrapos RS joinned SC and founded República Juliana. I think the article lacks by not citing Gaúchos in Santa Catarina. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.37.94.165 (talk • contribs) 17 January 2007.

If it is a well-known fact, there should be little difficulty finding citation. - Jmabel | Talk 22:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a small and very scantily populated area in the mountains of Santa Catarina, between São Joaquim and the border with Rio Grande do Sul, which has essentially a Gaúcho culture, but other than that, the only Brazilians that could be considered Gaúcho north of Rio Grande do Sul are migrants from that state and their descendants.

In this sense, Gaúchos can be found everywhere in Brazil, even in the very distant Amazon region, because people from Rio Grande do Sul have migrated to all parts of the country and in many cases founded communities with strong Gaúcho roots and traditions. For example, there is a town called Porto dos Gaúchos ("Port of the Gaúchos") in northern Mato Grosso, thousands of kilometres from Rio Grande do Sul. However, Gaúchos are almost invariably a minority group in such areas and not representative of the prevailing local culture (although acknowledged to have heavily influenced it in many places).

I believe that in Brazil, Gaúchos are basically and strongly associated with Rio Grande do Sul, to the point that the word gaúcho is used in Brazilian Portuguese as a universal demonym for people from there, even for modern urban dwellers of the state capital of Porto Alegre with immigrant rather than Gaúcho ancestry in its strictest sense (the alternative demonyms sul-rio-grandense and rio-grandense-do-sul, although more precise, are only very rarely used and considered somewhat pedantic). The República Juliana was a brief political alliance at a precise historical moment, and I don't think it made catarinenses (people from Santa Catarina) any closer to Gaúcho culture in the long term. The two states do have a lot in common (as well as strong economic ties), but this affinity is chiefly due to the intense European immigration (most notably German and Italian) to both states starting in the 1880s - long after the core Gaúcho culture was formed in the Pampas plains (which geographically do not extend north to Santa Catarina).

So, personally, I don't think Gaúchos in Santa Catarina are significant enough to be mentioned.

--UrsoBR (talk) 10:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Some notes from a guy with a History degree from UFPR: Actually what is called "gaucho culture" here was something shared by the whole south of Brazil and parts of center-west of Brazil. But for political and historical reasons, only Rio Grande do Sul kept those traditions while Parana and Santa Catarian didn't. Just look at some portraits of "tropeiros" from Parana or Santa Catarina. It's the same gaucho attire.

Some years ago some politician in Curitiba (capital of Parana) tried to institute the "bombacha" (gaucho pants) as official dress in the Capital. This became a joke, because nowadays everyone connects bombacha with Rio Grande do Sul, but those politicians were pretty correct in a historical sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.80.62.37 (talk) 18:53, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Etymology

Regarding: "the Arabic chaucho (a type of whip used in herding animals)." While I have no idea if a proposed Arabic origin if Gaucho is correct, I would note that "chaucho" is clearly not an Arabic word at all, although this may be a Iberian deformation of an Arabic word for "a type of whip used in herding animals." The CH (is it "sh" as in French or "ch" as in English, or...) does not exist in Arabic, and the form of the word given looks to be Iberian (Spanish I would guess). This entry should obviously be researched more (although Wikipedia in its typical sloppiness is a great source for naive false etymologies). (collounsbury 17:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC))

free image

there's a great free image of a gaucho here: http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cph.3g12117 140.247.240.181 23:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Ronaldinho

In the section "Modern influences", one reads: "Ronaldinho, nicknamed by some as Ronaldinho Gaúcho" but as long as any brazilian I know refers to Ronaldinho as "Ronaldinho gaúcho", I suggest to change the entry to "Ronaldinho, nicknamed in Brazil as Ronaldinho Gaúcho"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

Mascot's hat

Reading the text I can't find any reference to the origin of the gaucho's hat and the exclusive association of both. As I ain't any specialist in the subject I can't make a straight association of the hat worn by the Texas Tech's mascot (some kind of zorro) and the one commonly worn by the gauchos. So why shouldn't the entry be removed? Moreover one can quickly make confusion between the zorro there and a gaucho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

A way of life

I think this article lacks by not emphisizing the gaucho as belonging to a way of life preserved untill today and the association with the term gaucho with cowboy seems erroneous to me, as we have the terms vaqueiro, peão, etc; in portuguese and words like peón and vaquero in spanish. Perhaps it should be explicitly pointed that the gaucho's way of life isn't any touristic show. We can cite, for example the activities of the worldwide Movimento Tradicionalista Gaúcho and the Confederacion Gaucha Argentina and they efforts to keep traditionalism in these days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

Purpose

Hello again. My final contribution (complain?) for now is to purpose a complete renewing of the article. The new one is intended to have sections differentiating the gaucho as it is in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, etc; sections explaining the gaucho's complete gear, culinary, traditions, festivities, peculiar language, their influence in their country and so on. I think that with a joint effort we can extend this article to a subsection of WikiProject South America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

Changes made

As nobody manifested contrary, I'm making some of the changes that I've pointed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustavo Colvero (talk • contribs)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Criollos

Any reason not to use Criollo people over creole peoples when linking from the criollos? It would be more accurate, no? I reverted for now pending discussion.--MartinezMD (talk) 14:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

A problem with that would be that in Brazil, where part of the Gaúchos live, the similar Portuguese word crioulo has a totally different meaning from what is understood as criollo or creole in other countries. It is used to designate people with black (African) ancestry, and although commonplace in the past, it is now considered derogatory, racist and very politically incorrect. This could be confusing and troublesome.

--UrsoBR (talk) 11:03, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Pampas "as far north as Paraná"?

The article text said that "Gauchos (...) lived on the pampas, the plain that extends north from Patagonia, bounded on the west by the Andes and extending as far north as the Brazilian state of Paraná." This was absolutely incorrect, since just north of Rio Grande do Sul (and including that state's northeastern area and part of the North) is the high plateau of Santa Catarina that marks the end of the plain. In Brazil, the Pampas plain comprises solely the larger part of Rio Grande do Sul, extending from Argentina on the west and from Uruguay on the south. So, I have corrected that phrase's ending to "...and extending on the east to Uruguay and the Brazilian state of Rio Grande do Sul." --UrsoBR (talk) 11:03, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Paragraph order change proposal

[[File:The gaucho plays an important symbolic role in the nationalist feelings of this region, especially that of Argentina and Uruguay. The epic poem Martín Fierro by José Hernández used the gaucho as a symbol against corruption and of Argentine national tradition, pitted against Europeanising tendencies. Martín Fierro, the hero of the poem, is drafted into the Argentine military for a border war, deserts, and becomes an outlaw and fugitive. The image of the free gaucho is often contrasted to the slaves who worked the northern Brazilian lands. Further literary descriptions are found in Ricardo Güiraldes' Don Segundo Sombra.]]

I think this paragraph is more relevant than the DNA study of the gaucho from Rio Grando do Sul. Therefore it should be placed before. The DNA could be more relevant if it wasn't exclusive to the gauchos from the south of Brazil but the gauchos from all regions. This DNA study is very specific to one region, which is why it should be place after the paragraph mention. The more general information should be most times place before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weezer08 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Incomplete/unclear sentence

In the second paragraph under the 'History' section:

Most gauchos were either criollo (South Americans of Spanish or Portuguese ancestry) or mestizo (of mixed Spanish and Native American blood), but the European, African, or mixed ancestry.

I would fix it but I'm not knowledgable enough on the topic to know what it is trying to say. -MidnightDesert (talk) 09:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The myth of the open border

This sentence,

Another explanation could be that it is due to the nomadic nature of the gaucho's life; simply going where cattle were thriving.

seems reminiscent of the myth that gauchos could freely roam through the borders between Argentina, Uruguay, and Brazil (particularly the latter two). This idea, that can be often found here and in other Wikipedia articles, is completely unfounded. John Charles Chasteen explains it quite well in his Heroes on horseback: a life and times of the last gaucho caudillos):

However invisible on the ground, the border had a large impact on their lives and held an important place in their understanding of the political order. After all, the border had not been imposed on them, as its invisibility seemed to indicate. Rather, the borderlanders had imposed the border in wars against with each other.

So, I am proposing to remove this ideological tirade from the article. If anyone disagrees, please explain here why. Ninguém (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Difficult to read

the article is difficult to read. It seems to have been originally written by an Argentine and then updated by a Brazilian, then a Uruguayan. The result is a competition between which country has the most authentic gauchos. --177.214.126.254 (talk) 10:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Examples, please♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Falklands?

the mention and photo of "gauchos" from the Falklands has an obvious political motive. Wikipedia is not the right forum for this debate. --177.214.126.254 (talk) 10:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The image is also used in Origins of Falkland Islanders, which mentions gauchos at several parts. Cambalachero (talk) 15:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

No ref here though, the ref was to a suspended account. I dont though agree that there is any political motivation, if there was on which side would the political motivation be? As it isnt clear makes a mockery of the claim♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Gender

Can women be called "gaucho"? The emphasis seems to be on "cowboys" and other men. —DIV (120.23.85.218 (talk) 15:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC))

Women are called "China" and in fact is a Quechua word...like Gaucho come from Guacho (original quechua: Huacho)..both, Gaucho and Guacho mean the same orphan and wanderer...we use both in Argentina, to people and animal, Gaucho is the spanish pronunciation of Guacho, not is a arabic word.--152.170.24.22 (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Definitions in lede

IMHO too many editors have been amending the definitions of the word gaucho to accord with their own personal understanding, without noticing the existing definitions are fully sourced, and by whom. Thus their amendments have the effect, doubtless unintended, of misquoting the Diccionario de la Lengua Española. The Diccionario may not be infallible, but it is far and away the most authoritative text in the Spanish language. I have mentioned the source explicitly in the text now, so at, even if some editors don't read the footnotes, least they know who they are gainsaying.Ttocserp 14:06, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be appropriate to mention that not all gauchos were mestizos though?68.149.54.222 (talk) 08:28, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

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Corrected the definitions of "chiripá" and "tirador"

The chiripá is not the same as a tirador and neither of them are a kind of sash.

The chiripá is a garment worn in the fashion of a diaper, as this article used to say. It is often created with a poncho, though the famous song "El Orejano" mentions that poor people used sackcloth. From Chiripá, translated: "a simple skirt cinched around the waist, wrapped once and a half times around the body... falling to mid-knee, and also, in another form... a rectangle passed between the legs and cinched at four points around the waist, in the form of a diaper..."

The name of the sash is also not "tirador", which is a different garment entirely than both the sash and the chiripá, but "faja".

I have made both these changes.--169.252.4.23 (talk) 05:22, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Gaucho culture in Brazil

There is a sentence in the beginning of the article that needs to be reviewed, for it relates to the gaucho culture in Brazil as being present only in the state of Rio Grande do Sul, which is inaccurate both geographically and historically. The mentioned sentence goes: "The gaucho is a symbol in Argentina, Uruguay, Rio Grande do Sul state in southern Brazil, and the southern Chilean Patagonia." The gaucho is a symbol in the whole south of Brazil, and the arrival of gaucho culture in Chile is a recent event if compared to its relevance in other regions from Brazil apart from Rio Grande do Sul.

In fact, the state of Rio Grande do Sul, in the southernmost region of Brazil, which borders both Uruguay and Argentina, was the last state to receive and absorb the gaucho culture in Brazil, which had previously flourished for some good 150 years between Argentina and other states of Brazil such as Santa Catarina, and more historically relevant the state of Parana. In order to understand this historical development, it is important to understand the trade pathways that existed between Argentina and Brazil. The Pampas certainly did not reach the state of Parana, but the gaucho culture developed itself firstly there and in the Argentine Pampas, a century and half before it went to the southernmost region of Brazil.

The wide-panted cattleman from Argentina, "troops-man" or "tropeiros", were tradesman and travelers who transported herds of cattle and other products, such as spices and seasonings, with the purpose of marketing them in the South, Southwest and Midwest regions of Brazil. But most importantly was the trade of cattle from the Pampa fields of Argentina to the markets and ports of both cities of Sorocaba and Sao Paulo.

The pathway, which came later to be known as "the pathway of matte", consisted initially of entering Brazil through its western border, in the region of Foz do Iguazu (Iguazu falls) in the state of Parana. It later became known as the "pathway of matte" because the state of Parana was primordially inhabited by indigenous tribes known as "Guarani", and the habit of drinking hot yerba-matte in the cold South Brazilian weather was introduced to the Argentine cattleman by the indigenous tribes that lived in what is today the state of Parana.

The the cattleman, in turn, taught the tribes how to eat the "asado" or the slow-cooking groundfire barbecue. This exchange of culture is what brought about the birth of the gaucho culture - a clear mixture of Spaniard herdsman culture (whose influence can be found in other parts of Latin America such as Mexico), with its Persian originated wide pants, guitars and accordions, while the guarani tribes taught them how to protect themselves form the cold through hot drinks, and also guided them to the best regions to travel and camp through the land.

This interaction between the Guarany and Argentine cattleman during the 1700s is the actual birth of the gaucho culture, a word that derives, arguably, from the Araucaninan language word "kauchu", meaning "friend", which till today preserves the culture of drinking hot yerba-matte tea next to the slow cooked ground-fire barbecue, along with its typical music, clothing, dances and accent, which at times is so foreign to most Brazilians that it could perhaps be understood as a quasi-dialect. In fact, the gaucho culture is a very positive example of cultural amalgamation. It was not until the 1800s that the gaucho culture went South, from Parana down to the other southern states of Santa Catarina and eventually Rio Grande do Sul and Uruguay.

It is important to understand that the trade pathway travelled virtually on a straight line, from the Brazilian western border with Argentina in Foz do Iguazu, all the way to what is today the city of Curitiba, the capital of the state of Parana, which was the last stop, so to speak, to the troops-man before they arrived into the market towns in the Brazilian states more to the north, thus leaving the "gaucho area" and entering regions with a different cultural identity and weather. It is in fact above the state of Parana, that Brazil is technically understood as being tropical, different from the sub-tropical weather of Brazil's southernmost States.

In the 1800s, the crossing by boat between Argentina and Uruguay was achieved, which created the possibility of expanding the trade pathways, and the "matte pathway" was then transformed into the "matte route", given its elliptical shape. The Argentine cattleman would thus continue their northern journey through Argentina all the way to Foz do Iguazu, but now on their way back, from Sao Paulo to Argentina, they would prefer to go southwards, through the vast lands of southern Brazil, entering deep into the States of Santa Catarina and subsequently Rio Grande do Sul and Uruguay. It is important to understand that by then the races has greatly amalgamated between the Europeans from Spain and Portugal and local indigenous tribes, mostly Guarany, and the gaucho culture was already some 6 generations in full blossom.

Gaucho culture did not arrive in the state Rio Grande do Sul until after the end of the Cisplatine War, with constant efforts from the Portuguese Crown to populate that southernmost region, which culminated in the Farroupilha revolution in 1835. The actual borders of the State of Rio Grande do Sul were delineated only in 1801 with the Treaty of Badajoz. The constant battles for the region of Rio Grande do Sul between the kingdoms of Portugal and Spain throughout most of the 18th century was one of the main obstacles for any settlements or culture to develop in the region. The first attempts by the Jesuits was quickly destroyed, and the first successful attempt to populate that region was made around the 1830s with the arrival of German migrants. By this time, the gaucho culture had already been in full development for approximately 150 years in both Argentina and Parana state through the mentioned "matte pathway".

Nevertheless, due to mass disseminations of the Brazilian media, only the State of Rio Grande do Sul ended up being identified as the "gaucho" region of Brazil - a historical and geographical inaccuracy, given the facts stated above and the other fact that, until today, the gaucho culture is widely found in all southern states of Brazil, from Parana to Santa Catarina to Rio Grande do Sul. It is interesting to notice that the yerba-matte grows naturally throughout the state of Parana, and it was one of Brazil's main commodities to both Argentina and Uruguay in the 1800s. In truth, all people from the South of Brazil are gaucho to a certain extent, especially in the countryside. It is noteworthy to observe, by instance, that the very first CTG (Center for Gaucho Traditions) ever recorded in the history of Brazil was situated in what is today the busy Zacharias Plaza (Praça Zacarias), in the very heart of Parana state capital city of Curitiba.

Therefore, it is inaccurate to state in the main text that the gaucho culture exists only in Argentina and in Rio Grande do Sul, for as stated above, it is wide spread throughout the whole of southern Brazil, Uruguay, and today it has spread into regions of Paraguay, Chile and some other northwest regions of Brazil. My suggestion is to correct the sentence to: "The gaucho is a symbol in Argentina, Uruguay, and the southern Brazilian states of Parana, Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul." The arrival of the gaucho culture do the southern Chilean Patagonia is a much recent event, and far less relevant to gaucho culture than its development is both Parana and Santa Catarina through the historical pathways of matte and cattle by the troops-man.

Then all you need to do is cite reliable sources to support it.Ttocserp 10:08, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, there's plenty of reliable sources to support it since these are well known historical facts, yet the intellectual production on this matter is mostly in Portuguese. Shall I add the sources anyway?

Etymology section

Is the Etymology section too long and too specialised for a general article on Gaucho? If so, it could be moved to a new article and replaced by a brief summary.Ttocserp 08:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Lead section

The existing lede is not really based on the body of the article, but on dictionary definitions. I doubt if anyone can really define gaucho, an elusive concept whose meaning has varied and continues to vary, but in any case it is not for Wikipedia to attempt it, as per WP:NOTDICT. The lead section, rather, should be a concise summary of the main body of the article. Ttocserp 22:00, 18 January 2023 (UTC)