Talk:Kylie Minogue

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Featured articleKylie Minogue is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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On this day... Article milestones
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January 29, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
February 28, 2005Featured article candidatePromoted
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Current status: Featured article

RfC[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There was consensus against the proposal as written. TarnishedPathtalk 10:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Should the lead of Kylie Minogue's article be changed to this lead section I rewrote to include some pertinent, missing information? There is a list of specific changes, with sources to back them up. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 16:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Old lead section
Kylie Ann Minogue AO OBE (/mɪˈnoʊɡ/; born 28 May 1968)[1][2] is an Australian singer, songwriter and actress. Minogue is the highest-selling female Australian artist of all time, having sold over 80 million records worldwide.[3] She has been recognised for reinventing herself in music as well as fashion, and is referred to by the European press as the "Princess of Pop" and a style icon. Her accolades include a Grammy Award, three Brit Awards and seventeen ARIA Music Awards.

Born and raised in Melbourne, Minogue first achieved recognition starring as Charlene Robinson in the Australian soap opera Neighbours (1986–1988). She began her music career in the late 1980s, releasing four bubblegum and dance-pop-influenced studio albums under PWL. By the early 1990s, Minogue had amassed several top ten singles in Australia and the UK, including "The Loco-Motion", "I Should Be So Lucky", "Especially for You", "Hand on Your Heart" and "Better the Devil You Know". Taking more creative control over her music, she signed with Deconstruction Records in 1993 and released the albums Kylie Minogue (1994) and Impossible Princess (1997).

By joining Parlophone in 1999, Minogue returned to mainstream dance-oriented music with Light Years (2000), including the number-one hits "Spinning Around" and "On a Night Like This". The follow-up, Fever (2001), was an international breakthrough for Minogue, becoming her best-selling album to date. Its lead single, "Can't Get You Out of My Head" becoming one of the most successful singles of the 2000s, selling over five million units. Follow up singles, "In Your Eyes" and "Love at First Sight" became hits as well. She continued reinventing her image and experimenting with a range of genres on her subsequent albums, which spawned successful singles such as "Slow", "I Believe in You", "2 Hearts" and "All the Lovers". In 2017, she partnered with BMG Rights Management, with "Dancing" (2018) as their first release. In the following years, Minogue became the only female artist to have a number-one album and a top ten single, from the 1980s to the 2020s in the UK charts, with Disco (2020) and "Padam Padam" (2023) respectively.

In film, Minogue made her debut in The Delinquents (1989), and appeared in Street Fighter (1994), Moulin Rouge! (2001), Holy Motors (2012) and San Andreas (2015). In reality television, she appeared as a judge on The Voice UK and The Voice Australia both in 2014. Her other ventures include product endorsements, books, perfumes, charitable work and a wine brand. Minogue's achievements include being an ARIA Hall of Fame inductee, Officer of the Order of Australia (AO), Officer of the Order of the British Empire, Chevalier (knight) of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres and an honorary Doctor of Health Science (D.H.Sc.).
New lead section
Kylie Ann Minogue AO OBE (/mɪˈnoʊɡ/; born 28 May 1968) is an Australian singer, songwriter and actress. Referred to by the European press as the "Princess of Pop",[4] she has been widely recognised for her reinvention in music and fashion. Her accolades include a Grammy Award, three Brit Awards and seventeen ARIA Music Awards.

Born and raised in Melbourne, Minogue first achieved recognition in the Australian soap opera Neighbours (1986–1988). She began her music career in the late 1980s, releasing four studio albums under PWL. By the early 1990s, she had amassed several top five singles in Australia and the UK, including "The Loco-Motion", "I Should Be So Lucky", "Especially for You", "Hand on Your Heart" and "Better the Devil You Know". After taking more creative control over her music, she signed with Deconstruction Records and released the albums Kylie Minogue (1994) and Impossible Princess (1997), the former holding the number-one hit "Confide in Me".

Minogue returned to mainstream dance-pop after joining Parlophone with Light Years (2000), including the number-one hits "Spinning Around" and "On a Night Like This". Her next album, Fever (2001), was an international breakthrough and became her best-selling album to date. The lead single, "Can't Get You Out of My Head" topped the charts of over 40 countries and sold over five million units. It became one of the most commercially successful singles of the 2000s. Follow up singles include "In Your Eyes" and "Love at First Sight" which both peaked in the top-five. She continued reinventing her image and experimenting with a range of genres on her subsequent albums, which spawned successful singles such as "Slow", "I Believe in You", "2 Hearts" and "All the Lovers". She later partnered up with BMG Rights Management, with "Dancing" as their first release. After releasing Disco (2020), she became the only female artist to have a number-one album from the 1980s to the 2020s in the UK charts. Her sixteenth studio album Tension (2023) received widespread acclaim from critics, with the lead single "Padam Padam" noted as her recording comeback.[5]

Minogue is the highest-selling female Australian artist of all time, having sold over 80 million records worldwide. In film, Minogue made her debut in The Delinquents (1989), and appeared in Street Fighter (1994), Moulin Rouge! (2001), Holy Motors (2012) and San Andreas (2015). In reality television, she appeared as a judge on The Voice UK and The Voice Australia both in 2014. Her other ventures include product endorsements, books, perfumes, charitable work and a wine brand. Minogue's achievements include being an ARIA Hall of Fame inductee, Officer of the Order of Australia (AO), Officer of the Order of the British Empire, Chevalier (knight) of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres and an honorary Doctor of Health Science (D.H.Sc.).

References

  1. ^ "Kylie Minogue vs. Kylie Jenner Trademark Battle Has a Winner". Billboard. 7 February 2017.
  2. ^ "7 of Kylie Minogue's most iconic outfits". Vice. 26 March 2021.
  3. ^ "National Film and Sound Archive of Australia". NFSA. 23 November 2020. Retrieved 19 March 2022.
  4. ^ Sources for Minogue being called the "Princess of Pop":
  5. ^ Khomami, Nadia (2023-05-31). "Kylie Minogue 'bursting with joy' as new single Padam Padam soars up charts". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2023-10-18. It's been hailed as Kylie Minogue's "comeback" single and has generated countless memes and dance videos on social media.

Specific changes list:

  • A mention of her 1994 number one single, Confide in Me
  • Extra sources calling her the "Princess of Pop"; some of which are not European but American sources, so the "European press" phrasing is null
  • Can't Get you out of my Head topping the charts of over 40 countries; source from The Guardian
  • Removed year attached to "Dancing" as the other links to her other notable songs don't have years attached to them
  • Removed "the only female artist in the UK that has achieved a top-ten single from the 1980s to the 2020s"; this is WP:SYNT as the source linked says "She is the fourth female artist to received a top-ten single across 5 consecutive decades." Not the same thing.
  • Tension, her latest album, is her highest scoring album on Metacritic and the first of her albums to receive a "widespread acclaim" score since Metacritic was established in the 2000s. A woman with such a long career as hers achieving her best scoring album 35 years into her career is unheard of, therefore this deserves its mention.
  • Moved "highest selling artist of all time" to the first sentence of the last paragraph, as is done on many other female entertainer articles like Madonna and Beyonce.
Agree as proposer. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 15:11, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Malformed RfC. Please clearly indicate what changes are being proposed and what corresponding sections of the article body support the changes to the lede. --Hipal (talk) 15:55, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hipal: Done, I added a more descriptive sentence to the question. Additionally, more specific changes of what I'm proposing can be found in the above section of the talk page under "Insignificant but productive lead changes." PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 16:17, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I have no idea what changes are being proposed. You might want to put both the current and the proposed together so people can see them both, or create a version showing the changes via <del>...</del> and <ins>...</ins>. --Hipal (talk) 16:41, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
cc @Hipal: Should I blank this section and start over? The RfC short sentence isn't showing up on the list no matter what edits I make to it. I asked for help in the Teahouse about it.
As for del & ins, I didn't know that code, thanks. I'm very noobish at templates. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 17:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree, the current lead section is fine as it is, as Drmies already pointed out in this talk page. Also once again, you omitted her achievement for having a top ten single in five consecutive decades (80s to the 20s) in the UK chart. Your proposed lead section is also way too long.TheHotwiki (talk) 15:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the claim for "Can't Get You Out of My Head" hitting #1 in forty countries is unreferenced within the lead section, and the entire article itself. A big no for the lead section of a featured Wikipedia article.TheHotwiki (talk) 16:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, the admin (that you've pinged four times already) did not support nor advertise your reverts. Reread the actual message again. You also cannot "Decline" rfcs.
Second of all, as I've already pointed out many times, that achievement does not have a direct source and your reasoning for including it is SYNT. According to Wordcounter, the proposed lead section only adds 10 more words, most of which are around adding the mention of "Confide in Me". Which you also keep removing with no reason.
Re CGYOMYH: The Guardian - The single [...] reached No 1 in around 40 countries. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 16:11, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Your claim of SYNT is false though. The article itself has a reference (from The Official Charts Company) that Minogue has achieved a top ten hit in the 80s to the 2020s, which so far, she's the only female artist to achieve that feat. The other female singers – Lulu, Cher and Diana Ross have achieved their top ten singles in different five consecutive decades compare to Minogue, as pointed out several times in this talkpage. Your reasoning of removing her achievement in singles chart, isn't justified. "Padam Padam" is also not a recording comeback, as she never retired from recording/releasing music, for you to label it as a "recording comeback". Also removing certain mention of specific years, in the current lead section is a big no.TheHotwiki (talk) 16:22, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did the OCC say specifically that "Kylie is the only female artist to achieve a top ten single from the 80s to the 2000s"?
  • The Guardian described it as a recording comeback; why do you keep using "you" pronouns as if I am the one who wrote these sources?
  • The other singles don't have years attached to them as per MOS
Still also haven't given any good reason for removing Confide In Me and Can't Get You out of My Head's records PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You keep asking if she's the only artist to have a top ten single in the 80s to the 2020s. Well other than Kylie Minogue, which female artist managed to score a top ten single from the 80s to the 2020s then? You cannot even argue that there is someone else that managed to achieve, that in the same five consecutive decades. You can clearly google if there is someone else right? The Official Charts Company didn't state Cher, Diana Ross and Lulu had top ten single during the 80s to the 2020s. It is very clear in the reference provided, those three other artists achieved theirs in the 60s to the 2020s, in a different time period as Minogue. The fact that you keep an making an excuse of this in order to remove it from the lead section, is just wild to me.TheHotwiki (talk) 16:35, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OR PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 16:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just because it wasn't copied and pasted, doesn't make it an original research. I'd like to see someone else making a comment about, that its original research. TheHotwiki (talk) 16:41, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I am unsure the lede needs a list of here most popular songs (fOr a start). No this does not look like an improemwnt. Slatersteven (talk) 16:43, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Even without this RfC, the lead already has her popular songs... what? PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 16:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here from the notification at WP:NPOV. I would suggest actually showing what is going to be changed, rather than just showing what the new lead will be. It's far to much detail to be working it out by flicking back and forth from the current lead to the proposal. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:16, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ActivelyDisinterested: Done. Thoughts? PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 06:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also please refrain from speaking/writing a different language in the talkpage. We are in English Wikipedia. Speaking/typing in a different language in this talk page, to release your frustration isn't a good look. TheHotwiki (talk) 08:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sidetracked discussion
The single "Confide in Me" added in the lead section, "Can't Get You Out of My Head" charting at #1 in forty countries being mentioned (questionable, since the reference didn't state which those 40 countries were), Minogue being the only female artist to achieve a top 10 single in 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s and 20s in the UK Singles Chart, being removed in the lead section, "Padam Padam" being called as a "recording comeback", which is false as Minogue released new music in 2020 and 2021, just a few years before "Padam Padam" and had number one albums in 2018/19/20 in Australia and the UK. Several mentioned of specific years being removed from the lead section. Its not an improvement, in my opinion. TheHotwiki (talk) 01:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • And what exactly is your argument for omitting "Confide In Me" as a mention?
  • What part of WP policy states that the specific countries need to be mentioned? The source is from a world famous newspaper with high integrity. Unless you can prove that The Guardian is a bad source.
  • Removed because SYNT from source.
  • "Hung Up" by Madonna is frequently cited as a comeback for her despite that she was releasing singles from 2000-2005, so that argument is null. Like I said, prove that The Guardian is a bad source and I'll be happy to remove it. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Sources
  • I don't see you arguing to add specific years to all of her singles like Love at First Sight and Slow?? Ano problema mo??
PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 06:16, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Padam Padam" isn't a recording comeback when she released new music in 2018 to 2021. Also, you keep bringing up SYNT, when you couldn't even argue that there is another female artist other than Kylie Minogue, that managed to have a top ten single in the 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s and 20s in the Uk Singles Chart. Your continuous dismissal for that achievement really shows how you are only basing these changes in your own preference only. TheHotwiki (talk) 06:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the only change I am okay with is mentioning "Confide in Me". It still needs better wording. The rest of the changes, don't really improve the lead section in any shape of form. "Padam Padam" being called a "recording comeback" whether its from a respected magazine, is still an opinion from a single journalist. That shouldn't be written in the lead section. While Kylie Minogue achieving a UK top ten single in the 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s and 20s, isn't based on an opinion from someone else, but a fact published by the The Official Charts which are based from the music industry results coming from public sales/streaming. As for Tension's "critical acclaim", Minogue's previous album Disco was well received by critics as well, which was included in several year-end lists for albums, but its not highlighted in the lead section. So Tension shouldn't be as well. TheHotwiki (talk) 07:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1. Extra sources:
Queerty: Kylie Minogue’s comeback with summer anthem “Padam Padam” shows no signs of slowing up.
News24: Padam Padam is the pop pixie’s banger of a comeback single that has everyone from nine to 90 hooked and it’s thrust her firmly back into the charts.
Evening Standard: Kylie Minogue is officially back! Her comeback single Padam Padam arrives as a first teaser to newly announced album Tension – and unsurprisingly, it’s a dancefloor-ready gem.
PinkNews: Kylie’s comeback appears to mark a similar shift. With “Padam Padam”, she is looking likely to have her biggest British hit in nearly a decade.
2. OCC says that she is the fourth female artist to receive a top ten hit in five consecutive decades; that is all the source said and to change the context (which you are arguing for) would be WP:OR.
3. Disco has a MC score of 72, indicating "positive reviews". Tension has a MC score of 86, indicating "widespread acclaim". It is objective truth Tension is objectively scored way higher than Disco and currently Kylie's only "universally acclaimed" album on Metacritic. It is boggling me how you want to remove her critical success; there is a difference between positive reviews and critical acclaim. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 10:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At this point, no one is agreeing with you. Time to give it a rest. TheHotwiki (talk) 14:10, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Personal attacks instead of actually countering my points that I've based in policy and have given references to.
Maybe when you stop your clear WP:OWN issues that many people have complained about; you actually could be doing anything constructive and not resorting to petty, insignificant attacks. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 14:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're accusing me of attacking you, when you yourself accused me of so many things (please read your comments towards about me). Also you can clearly see in this talk page that I wasn't the only one who didn't see your proposed changes as an improvement. We've been discussing about this for more than 48 hours, and no one has agreed with your proposed changes. Let it go. TheHotwiki (talk) 14:25, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't an accusation when several other editors have confronted you of WP:OWN issues on this particular article specifically. That isn't an accusation that's just the plain cold truth. Speaking of which, why are you still avoiding actually responding to the facts I've listed? (Tension is her highest, most acclaimed album.)
Additionally, that isn't how RfCs work. The only other person who's opposed the argument is someone whos mainly edits talk pages; and consensus isn't determined based on numbers, but the strength of arguments.
It seems more like you want to avoid constructive consensus and you keep resorting to ad hominem attacks. Other editors have called out your passive-aggressive rudeness; it isn't just me. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 14:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't been blocked or warned about owning an article. So you suddenly making this about me and personally attacking me, are both inappropriate and not healthy towards me. TheHotwiki (talk) 15:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also I think I am done with communicating with you. I think we've exhausted this topic. I don't agree with your changes and thats that. And since I've been personal attacked several by you in this talk page, I think my next step, would be to file a report against you. TheHotwiki (talk) 15:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Talk:Kylie_Minogue#Opening_paragraphs: "First things first, calm down and stop being passive-aggressive about it. Neither you nor I own ANY article on Wikipedia."
You've been a passive aggressive editor this entire time. Not only that; Wikipedia is built on consensus. Literally admitting "I don't agree with your changes therefore you cannot make any changes" straight up violates WP:OWN.
And are we even going to talk about that WP:INTIM statement? PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 00:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am not going to meddle in the lead changes (although, I think PHShanghai has some points); however, I can confirm that I have felt that Hotwiki has been rude and passive aggressive towards me in the past when it comes discussing/reverting some changes on the Kylie articles. Reading this conversation, I cannot help but feel he has some WP:OWN issues with the content he is contributing on Wiki. Let's not forget that Wikipedia is a joint collaborative project that must be respected and discussed. — Tom(T2ME) 09:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Slight oppose - (Brought here from WP:RFC/A) - I do think the proposed new section runs a little long. I don't like that the fact she was the #1 highest selling female Australian musician was omitted form the lead paragraph. However I do see you're putting a lot of work into the new section and think there is promise if you can trim it down and keep some of the key points. MaximusEditor (talk) 23:47, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tension critical acclaim[edit]

Tension is one of the highest ranking critically acclaimed pop albums of all time on Metacritic. This being omitted from the lead is confusing. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 07:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. Her critically acclaimed singles aren't mentioned either as well in the opening section. Hotwiki (talk) 07:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, please stop changing "highest selling" to "best selling". There's nothing wrong with the term. Even artist Dua Lipa used the term "highest selling" when she presented an award to Kylie Minogue at the Brits Award 2024. This seems like another unnecessary change to the opening paragraph, that doesn't improve the article. Hotwiki (talk) 08:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for the infobox picture, I like the cropped version from @750h+:[1]. Just use that file from that editor. Hotwiki (talk) 08:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Critically acclaimed" singles are most usually never mentioned in the lede (see Ray of Light (song) in Madonna but an album having an 80+ score on Metacritic and winning a grammy is notable for the lead section. Why remove the mention of critics loving her album? It was her first grammy win in 20 years...
Additionally, the cropped 1 image is too close to her face. If someone can remove the Cantonese subtitles then we would have more space to work with, but we have to make the best of what we have. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 16:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The cropped file by 750h+ was fine. Also may I remind you, not ALL Kylie Minogue albums have a Metacritic rating. Her first to sixth studio album don't have a Metacritic page. I'm sensing a pattern here, why do you keep the changing the lead section? Before, you mentioned her 4 PWL albums were teen pop albums. You claimed that Disco/Magic had "significant noise". Then you mentioned that the other Fever singles had the same chart success as Can't Get You Out of My Head. Now you didn't like the photo in the infobox, so you changed the picture for the second time. When someone cropped the image, you reverted it to your own upload. And now you keep insisting that Tension being critically acclaimed needs to be mentioned in the lead, and so as Padam Padam winning a Grammy in your most recent change. Hotwiki (talk) 17:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"and the Grammy-winning "Padam Padam" from the album Tension (2023) respectively" that line is incredibly wordy. Especially compare to her other album campaigns, in which the lead single is the only one mentioned in the lead section: "She continued reinventing her image and experimenting with a range of genres on her subsequent albums, which spawned successful singles such as "Slow", "I Believe in You", "2 Hearts" and "All the Lovers"." Seehow that line didn't mention the parent album/year of those singles. Also "Come Into My world" also won a grammy and it isn't mentioned in the lead section. Hotwiki (talk) 17:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the lead section as it is. You are heavily emphasizing on the Tension era in the lead section, by mentioning that Padam Padam won a Grammy, mentioning that single came from the album Tension, mentioning Tension's year of release (2023) and highlighting that Tension is "critically acclaimed". The lead section should be brief. Hotwiki (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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