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I do not have time enough now to edit the article, but the 2 last subsections of History have POV issues. The first one mentions crimes done by Albanians against Greeks, but not crimes made by Greeks against Albanians. It mentions the struggle of Greeks for independence, but not the struggle of Albanians and Aromanians too (revolts, Rilindja). The other section talks about the struggle of Greeks in Albania for independence and their human rights issues, but does not mentions Chams' human rights issues too (treatment by the nationalist Greek governments etc; the article only cares to say that they collaborated with Nazis). In general the article is focused on Greece/Greeks, sth that was highlighted in the failed GA nomination review. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously there should be a fair representation on those issues. Also considering that the Cham population comprised in terms of both population & geography slightly less than 10% compared to the Epirus periphery (and even less compared to Epirus region) we should avoid wp:UNDUE. Alexikoua (talk) 03:04, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is "Epirus periphery"? Botushali (talk) 05:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Another issue not presented in those sections is that major Nazi war crimes are not mentioned at all (apart from those joined operations with the Keshilla): Massacre of Kommeno and Lyngiades for example.Alexikoua (talk) 03:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, add those together with massacres and village burnings done by Greek bands and armies against Albanians, and especially against Albanian Orthodox clergy (Stathi Melani etc). Either both or none.Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:16, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After reading the article I see that various massacres by Albanian bands and the Albanian army are not mentioned at all: Balkan War era for example (see Tsoutsoumpis), as well as massacres of WWII era on the Albanian side of Epirus (Glyna, Konispol etc.). Should we have also assassinations of selective individuals? The murder of the perfect of Thesprotia is among them. By the way about the joined Axis-Cham operations there is only a single mention that numerous atrocities committed against the civilian population, but if we take the initiative to mention the killing of individuals (as in the case of Melani) then we should definitely mention the destruction of settlements (Sagiada), the massive executions of Paramythia and the forced expulsion to Nazi German camps (Fanari).
The burning of settlements by Albanian bands during the initial Italian offensive is also not mentioned in the current text (Igoumenitsa, Mourtos, Paramythia etc see Kretsi for details).Alexikoua (talk) 17:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to make a balanced proposal, where crimes and human rights from both sides are given due weight, you are welcome. Otherwise I will find the time and remove whatever content that make some History subsections look like a POV-pushing attempt. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:46, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"the massive executions of Paramythia" The Paramythia executions have their own article, but it indicates that there were only 201 victims. Dimadick (talk) 18:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ktrimi991: I agree that some parts should be re-written in both sections. Also some paragraphs are without inline citations or the existing ones should be checked. I can work on that.Alexikoua (talk) 03:27, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And what did you do? You only added content/sources on crimes committed by Albanians, and tried to remove sth about Albanian tribes. It was my mistake to wait for you to make the article in line with NPOV. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The specific sentence is supposed to refer to the 6th-8th century (Slavic migration), nevertheless it introduces ethno-geographic terms that were unknonn to this era (Kurvelesh, Laberia etc.) that don't have a place to this historical context: Slavic toponyms are nearly lacking in the mountains of Labëria (on the Kurvelesh plateau), in the Ionian coast where today Lab Albanian villages neighbour with the Greek-speaking ones, therefore it can be assumed that the expansion of the Slavs had not reach this region. The inline citation does not agree on this anachronistic mixing, since it provides a description on the current toponymic situation not on the historical context of early medieval era. As such those terms need to go from that historical section.Alexikoua (talk) 01:27, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"The most ancient traces of human settlements in Epirus"[edit]
The claim is complete nonsense. There were no human settlements in the Paleolithic (30,000-40,000 years ago). Paleolithic humans were hunter gatherers, they did not have settlements of any kind. The first human settlements date from the Neolithic, in places like Gobekli Tepe (~12,000 years ago). The claim is thus WP:FRINGE. The sources are furthermore inadequate. A history of Chameria and a overview of Albanian history are not the right sources for a claim like this, only a an academic publication in paleontology and human prehistory would be adequate for such a claim. Khirurg (talk) 05:40, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Human settlement as in human presence not cities. And the source is reliable. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 06:06, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think human settlement in this context would refer to permanent settlements. I’m pretty certain they mean evidence of human settlement in the area, not necessarily towns or fortifications, but just evidence of human habitation in the region, such as artefacts from caves and the like. That’s perfectly plausible. Although admittedly, quotes would be useful here because I don’t think it’s been translated properly. Botushali (talk) 09:14, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RoyalHeritageAlb: A "history of Chameria" informing us that the earliest traces of human habitation in all of Epirus just happen to be in...Chameria. Your other source is an overview of Albanian history, the palelothic is way out its scope. You haven't even provided quotes, so we're supposed to just accept it? Please provide quotes so we can verify it, otherwise I will remove it again. Khirurg (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RoyalHeritageAlb: is kindly requested to provide page and quote from the source he added [[1]] which supports the supposed claim.Alexikoua (talk) 02:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No need, just by making a quick check numerous sites and tools of the Middle Palaeolothic era are unearthed in Epirus. To name one:
In Kokkinopilos a middle Paleolithic handaxe stratigraphy dates c. 150–200 kya
Stone tools from the Paleolithic is not extraordinary. But you are claiming that those specific stone tools are the oldest in Epirus. That is a strong claim that needs a strong source. Khirurg (talk) 03:38, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kokkinopilos is one of many sites since "Middle Palaeolithic sites are abundant in well - watered Greek regions , such as Epirus" [[4]].
RoyalHeritageAlb: traces of human activity (tools etc) are by no means "settlements". Extraordinary is also to claim that The most ancient traces of human presence in Epirus can be found in the late period of the Middle Paleolithic era (40,000-30,000 years ago) on the villages of Xarrë, Konispol (Kreçmoi Cave) and Shën Mari. As you see Kokkinopilos produced axes that are much older, not to mention that traces of Middle Paleolithic tools are plenty in Epirus.Alexikoua (talk) 03:38, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. It's one thing to say "stone tools were found in X", another to say "the oldest stone tools in Epirus were found in X". Khirurg (talk) 03:39, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For the record (based on Geoffrey King, Geoffrey Bailey, Derek Sturdy. Active tectonics and human survival strategies. Journal of Geophysical Research : Solid Earth, 1994, 99 (B10), pp.20,063-20,078. ff10.1029/94JB00280ff. ffhal00158848f): Asprohaliko produced tools that date from 200 kyr and Kokkinopilos c. 250 kyr. [[5]].Alexikoua (talk) 04:09, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
