Talk:Finnish mythology

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Merge[edit]

A lot of the information in Finnish paganism is the same as here. A good deal of it should be moved here (if it's not present already), but I think that certain parts of that article should remain (shamanism, modern revival). --Tydaj 18:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Punctuation[edit]

The article originally said about the recorded history of Finnish mythology:

Surprisingly much more wasn't written down until Elias Lönnrot composed the Kalevala.

Now this struck me as odd - it looks like there could well have been much more recorded history between Agricola and Lönnrot, but only the Kalevala added surprisingly much more. (The Finnish people were greatly surprised!) I edited this to:

Surprisingly, much more wasn't written down until Elias Lönnrot composed the Kalevala.

which is closer to the intended meaning. — JIP | Talk 11:22, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup[edit]

Did a lot of cleaning up and revising, mostly purging modern Neo-Pagan speculation and straightening out the language. BTW, it should be noted that Finns *did* assimilate a lot of deities from the surrounding areas, so comparisons with other mythological figures aren't automatically an attempt to hark back to some mythical shared pantheon. And cleaning speculation up is not some anti-Pagan hatred, just in case someone objects--I'm Pagan myself but would prefer accurate information on various world mythologies and folklore and not idle speculation and pseudohistory. There is very little information to go on when it comes to ancient Finnish religion, despite the amounts of poetry and folklore. I'd love to see some proper sources quoted here as well, such as the Laestadius treatise on Lapp religion. Snowgrouse 18:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Higher standard[edit]

Does the introduction to this article not strike anyone as a bit juvenile? It actually sounds bizarrely familiar to the "interchangebale parts" approach to ancient European belief systems summarized on the backs of 99.9% of Llewellyn publications. That neopagans would be "keeping the flame of traditional Finnish beliefs alive" (my paraphrase) is almost as ridiculous as saying that Wicca represents true ancient European religions. Wicca, and neopaganism in general, are by no means continuations of ancient Europeans belief systems; rather, they, at best, draw on those beliefs in constructing their own belief systems, or, at worst, twist the tenets of those ancient belief systems to fit their own ideological (usually left-wing universalist) ends (e.g., all the ancient gods are "aspects" of a single Supreme Being/Goddess-God, etc.). Revise this article so that it reads more like a scholarly work, and less like a "plug" for neopaganism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.99.77.122 (talk) 07:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I see no reason why an encyclopedia entry should present modern speculation and outrageous claims as fact, as if all Finns somehow observed ancient rites. Neo-Paganism is Neo-Paganism, Finnish mythology as it existed in the olden times is not the same thing. Snowgrouse 17:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Snowgrouse: Great job on the edit. Actually, I'm the one who wrote the "Higher Standard" comment. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. No offense meant. I actually find Finnish mythology fascinating. Narsil27 — Preceding undated comment added 06:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No prob. I'm not keen on pseudohistory or the various groups of Finnish Neo-Pagans who keep spreading their own stuff on the Internet as representative of proper history or current interpretations/revivals of the mythology or (Neo-)Paganism in general. If pseudohistory comes from the realm of religion and exists primarily to support faiths, that's the realm it should stay in. Snowgrouse 06:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Milky way[edit]

The Milky Way is still today referred to as Linnunrata in Finland.

I wouldn't say refeffed. As far as i know Linnunrata is the only finnish name for milky way and therefore its official name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.223.170.60 (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Original research[edit]

This article makes a lot of claims while citing NO sources whatsoever. – ∅ (∅), 21:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This Artical is very much true, my Last name though in Suomi means Dweller of the Land and also can mean a strong Mascilne Bear! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.16.61 (talk) 02:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More mixed than the others?[edit]

The first sentence in the article: Finnish mythology consisted of a belief in various indigenous nature spirits and gods, mixed with the more shamanic influences of the Sami people in the north and the Baltic and Viking influences from the south and the west.

This is like a plague. The article of Finnish history says at the very beginning that Finnish history is much influenced by other peoples and countries, and now this article says at its beginning that Finnish mythology is especially a mix (and apparently that other mythologies are less mixed). Like finns would be passive and not creative just like germanist racists have believed. Only few decades ago it was believed that finns are also racially mixed more than other Europeans, until it was proven false by DNA-tests.

No other mythology article says at its beginning that this certain mythology is mixed. This gives the false image that Finnish mythology is more mixed than ohter mythologies. In fact all the mythologies are mixed with neighbouring ones and Finnish is not more mixed than the others. Both Thor and Ukko are from Baltic Perkons, and Baltic Perkons and is again loan from other peoples, and so on. Actually if you look to Scandinavian or Baltic mythologies you see a lot less "own" stuff than in Finnish mythology. Finnish mythology is not just a mix from Lappish, Scandinavian and Baltic mythologies but it has a lots of its own, that is originated from the linquistic and cultural ancestors of the Finns and hold by them for millenias. Many of the most important myths, for example the myth of world tree and the myth of creation of world from egg are not loans from lapps, balts, vikings or any other now existing groups but they are part of own original beliefs of ancestors of finns. Many mythologies all over the word shares similar beliefs, but not because of mixing, but because originally all the cultures are from the same source, just like all the people are from the same source.

Finnish mythology is a part of Finnic mythologies which have lots of their own features. Finnic aspect is a lot more important in Finnish mythology than Germanic, Baltic or Slavic aspects Tuohirulla puhu 00:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm taking this on[edit]

Having read this & related articles, I couldn't agree more with the comments above from people like Snowgrouse, Narsil, Tuohirulla, etc. about the inadequacies of this article (& many of the related articles), the need for references, the need to keep a clear separation between authentic ancient mythology & traditions & the revival of some traditions in Neopaganism. As it happens, I've been collecting some pretty good reference materials on Finnish & Finno-Ugrian myth & folklore, etc. for several years. I don't speak/read Finnish (I hope to someday), but there's been a slowly growing corpus of reliable stuff in English from some of the real experts in the field. So I've begun going through it methodically, taking notes, & will be making some serious edits soon.

I already redid the stuff on the (nonhistorical) St. Urho a few days ago, & have been making random minor edits on related pages already. I was shocked to discover that somewhere in the history of the page on Ilmatar (the Lönnrot-invented mother of Väinämöinen), someone had decided that she was also the mother of Ilmarinen & Lemminkäinen!!! Yikes!

Wish me luck.

Yksin 21:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I look forward to your edits! Could I bother you to cross-edit Finnish paganism and Finnish neopaganism as well? - WeniWidiWiki 22:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I plan to do a lot of work on Finnish paganism too -- I've kinda got a working idea (as I wrote on that topic's talk page) of how to divide up the subject matter between the two pages. About Finnish neopaganism I know far far less, since as far as I know it's mainly in Finland (whereas I'm in Alaska), & probably also mostly in Finnish, which I don't know. But I'll do what I can. Thanks for your welcome. -- Yksin 01:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Neopaganism[edit]

This article seems to be mostly about Finnish neopagan reconstructionist beliefs, not the real ancestral mythology. It should be replaced with a thoroughly sourced, more scholarly article. Preferably not written by the Finns themselves unless said Finns have academic credentials. By all means merge the current article to Finnish neopaganism or wherever you like but this seriously needs to be rewritten from beginning to end. In its current state, it's an embarrassing, steaming pile of neopagan OR. KING SHALMANESER II 17:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree with you more that this is a really bad article. I've been working on research at home using the sources in the reference list that I added a few weeks back (see list), but I've been sidetracked by a couple of other things. Still working on it, however, & hope to have made some significant improvements to this article soon. --Yksin 19:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

DIANA SAYS: that this page gave me plenty of information thank you for anyone who wrote this!! im from finland and by the way sonata artical is from finland too and so it is really cool "ohi now!!" im the kontio!! bye! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.248.104.173 (talk) 15:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History of folklore studies in Finland[edit]

More or less scientific folklore studies have a long history in Finland, and I think it should be mentioned here. Aside from the obvious (Lönnrot et al.), the historical-geographic method, also called "the Finnish method" was, even internationally, for a long time during the early 20th century the method of scientific folklore research, pioneered by people like Julius and Kaarle Krohn. The main article on Folklore doesn't mention this either, but it should at the least be documented here.

-R2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.184.161.226 (talk) 10:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"feelia sour"[edit]

"feelia sour" is described sour whole milk. I think that's a mistake and "viili" (pronounced like "feeli") is confused with piimä. Piimä is sour whole milk, like thick milk, and is drank like milk. Viili is a sour milk curd, much like yoghurt or keffir but thicker and more slimy, and eaten like yoghurt.

Viili: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viili

Piimä: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermented_milk_products http://books.google.fi/books?id=Or1KCcVF_DUC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=piim%C3%A4&source=bl&ots=f3o6HhLBVZ&sig=bZ34-BvqsBHljaIZRYz0aOqHPOk&hl=fi&ei=YhIVTJ-YL8WNOI3f9KgM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=piim%C3%A4&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.108.9.90 (talk) 17:20, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

St. Urho[edit]

Why not just create a separate St. Urho's Day article and put that section there, and add a link to that article in the see also section? Until we come to an agreement on whether it should be included here or in its own article, please leave that section in this article. vıdıoman 02:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

St. Urho has nothing to do with the Finnish mythology.--130.234.68.220 (talk) 11:16, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There probably should be a separate page for this, as it is not a real Finnish mythology. St. Urho is as Finnish as Chop suey is Chinese. It is an American legend invented by an American citizen. --109.240.111.26 (talk) 18:00, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with this article and is one step removed from being something made up by school children. I moved it here till somebody can find a place for it.

Nonhistorical traditions Saint Urho The legend of St. Urho was the invention of a Finnish-American named Richard Mattson, who worked at Ketola's Department Store in Virginia, Minnesota in spring of 1956. Mattson later recounted that he invented St. Urho when he was questioned by coworker Gene McCavic about the Finns' lack of a saint like the Irish St. Patrick, whose feat of casting the snakes out of Ireland is remembered on St. Patrick's Day.[1] In fact, the patron saint of Finland is Henry (Bishop of Finland).

According to the original "Ode to St. Urho" written by Gene McCavic and Richard Mattson, St. Urho was supposed to have cast "tose 'Rogs" (those frogs) out of Finland by the power of his loud voice, which he obtained by drinking "feelia sour" (sour whole milk) and eating "kala mojakka" (fish soup).[2]

The original "Ode to St. Urho" identified St. Urho's Day as taking place on May 24. Later the date was changed to March 16, the day before St. Patrick's Day. St. Urho's feast is supposed to be celebrated by wearing the colors Royal Purple and Nile Green. Other details of the invented legend also changed, apparently under the influence of Dr. Sulo Havumäki, a psychology professor at Bemidji State College in Bemidji, Minnesota. The legend now states that St. Urho drove away grasshoppers (rather than frogs) from Finland using the incantation "Heinäsirkka, heinäsirkka, mene täältä hiiteen!" ("Grasshopper, grasshopper, go from hence to Hell!"), thus saving the Finnish grape crops.[3] Another version of the modern celebration of St. Urho's Day is that it was created by Kenneth Brist of Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin. Brist, a high school teacher, was teaching in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan in the early to mid-1950s in an area largely populated by people of Finnish heritage. He and his friends concocted March 16 as St. Urho's Day so that they had two days to celebrate, the next day being St. Patrick's Day.[4][5]

The designation of St. Urho as patron saint of the Finnish is particularly humorous because 82.5% of the Finnish population is affiliated with the Lutheran Church, which does not recognize Feasts of Saints. Brist promoted the "annual cancellation" of the St. Urho's Day Parade in Chippewa Falls with advertisements in the Chippewa Herald Telegram and by teaching his high school students about the legend of St. Urho.[6] The "Ode to St. Urho" has been modified to reflect these changes in the feast day and legend. The Ode is written in a self-parodying form of English as spoken by Finnish immigrants.[7] There is also a "Ballad of St. Urho" written by Sally Karttunen.[8]

The selection of the name Urho as the saint's name was probably influenced by the accession of Urho Kekkonen to the presidency of Finland in 1956. Urho in the Finnish language also has the meaning of hero or simply brave.

There are St. Urho fan clubs in Canada and Finland as well as the U.S., and the festival is celebrated on March 16 in many American and Canadian communities with Finnish roots.[9] The original statue of St. Urho is located in Menahga, Minnesota. Another interesting chainsaw-carved St. Urho statue is located in Finland, Minnesota. There is a beer restaurant called St. Urho's Pub in central Helsinki, Finland. A 2001 book, The Legend of St. Urho by Joanne Asala, presents much of the folklore surrounding St. Urho and includes an essay by Richard Mattson on the "birth" of St. Urho.

On March 16, 1999 in Kaleva, Michigan a large Metal Sculpture of a Grasshopper was Dedicated in honor of St. Urho's day. Kaleva is a community settle by Finnish Immigrants in 1900. In fact Kaleva is named after the Kalevala, the Epic Finnish story about the Creation of the Earth.[10]

Many places with mixed populations of Finnish and Irish have an annual St. Urho's day event on the night before St. Patrick's Day. Butte, Montana holds such a celebration each March 16.[11] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.0.139.105 (talk) 21:41, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kenneth Brist[edit]

The following peice is removed, as I failed to verify it from reliable sources (google: [1] [2]). Lolo Sambinho (talk) 19:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another version of the origin of the myth of St. Urho's Day is that it was created by Kenneth Brist of Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin. Brist, a high school teacher, was teaching in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan in the early to mid 1950's in an area populated largely by people of Finnish heritage. He and his friends contocted March 16 as St. Urho's Day so that they had two days to celebrate, the next day being St. Patrick's Day.[12] The designation of St Urho as patron saint of the Finnish is particularly humorous because 82.5% of the Finnish population is affiliated with the Lutheran Church, which does not recognize the Feasts of Saints.[13] Brist promoted the "annual cancellation" of the St Urho's Day Parade in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin with advertisements in the Chippewa Herald Telegram and by teaching his high school students about the legend of St Urho [14]
  1. ^ Williams, Linda Tyssen (2001-06-07). "St. Urho legend's creator, Richard Mattson, dies: St. Patrick got fierce competition from Finnish grapes-saver". Mesabi Daily News. Retrieved 2007-02-13.
  2. ^ "The Origin of St. Urho". St. Urho: Legendary Patron Saint of Finland. Retrieved 2007-02-13.
  3. ^ "St. Urho: Legendary Patron Saint of Finland". Retrieved 2007-02-13.
  4. ^ Interview with Kenneth Brist, WCCO Radio, March 16, 1971, citing unpublished research of Phillip Keezer, Phd.
  5. ^ http://sainturho.com/brist.htm
  6. ^ Chippewa Herald Telegram, March 16, 1970, page 4.
  7. ^ McCavic, Gene; Mattson, Richard. "Ode to St. Urho". St. Urho: Legendary Patron Saint of Finland. Retrieved 2007-02-13.
  8. ^ Karttunen, Sally. "Ballad of St. Urho". St. Urho: Legendary Patron Saint of Finland. Retrieved 2007-02-13.
  9. ^ "St. Urho Celebrations". St. Urho: Legendary Patron Saint of Finland. Retrieved 2007-02-13.
  10. ^ http://www.kalevami.com/albums/album_image/6880693/4938321.htm
  11. ^ http://www.mainstreetbutte.org/
  12. ^ Interview with Kenneth Brist, WCCO Radio, March 16, 1971, citing unpublished research of Phillip Keezer, Phd
  13. ^ CIA Factbook, "Finland", CIA, Washington, D.C. (2009)
  14. ^ See advertisement, Chippewa Herald Telegram, March 16, 1970.

The article history shows this section was added by 204.147.1.130 (talk · contribs) on 16 March 2009; I guess, as part of the St. Urho Day celebration :-) Hyvää yötä, Lolo Sambinho (talk) 19:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What about satu?[edit]

Would "satu" be considered one of the old gods? I ask because it is also a female name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.160.133 (talk) 20:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Satu means fairy tale in Finnish and yes, it's also a female name. I haven't heard anything about that word referring to any god. Niera (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:26, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bird migration[edit]

In the paragraph "The structure and origins of the world" we see the statement: "Modern science has confirmed migratory birds do indeed follow the course of the Milky Way while migrating to warmer Southern lands and back." Would not some trustworthy documentation be needed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.16.110.104 (talk) 08:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Euphemisms[edit]

This is only a minor point in the overall scheme of things, but: in the 3rd para, I think the author has got the euphemism relationships back-to-front. The text states that the 'real' Finnish word for bear is karhu, and that otso is one of the euphemisms used to avoid pronouncing the animal's 'real' name. I believe (and eg. the Finnish Wikipedia article on euphemisms concurs) this is the other way around, ie. that otso is the original name and karhu (which may be a reference to the rough, or karhea in Finnish, fur of the bear) is the euphemism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by R aaltonen (talk • contribs) 09:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In spanish language, a bear is "ozo". 84.125.97.253 (talk) 14:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An even older word for bear might be oksi, that declined like yksi or kaksi - oksi, ohta, ohden~ohen, ohtena, ohdeksi~oheksi etc It is still visible in some place names. But yes, karhu definitely is not the oldest possible name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.101.2.146 (talk) 16:30, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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