Talk:Rave

Geographic origin of the Rave genre

I'm reverting the changes made in good faith by Neki9999 concerning the Belgian contribution to the "rave" music genre. My reasons are that they appear to be an attempt to place Belgium as the birthplace of the "rave" genre, but do not offer any evidence to support this theory. I also am unable to find any references that will support his edits myself. All the evidence points to the "rave" genre originating in the UK, as described in DJ Laurent Garniers autobiography which is referenced here amongst other places. I invite Neki9999 to explain his reason for his proposed changes here to reach a consensus. PeakerPan (talk) 00:30, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 The source you have provided to support your edit appears to be biased, and contradicts the generally accepted timeline of "rave" as a genre. The promo text of the film itself states: "Now is the time to tell the story that has been widely ignored by ‘serious’ music critics and the mainstream media in general." See WP:Reliability. Please engage in discussion here before continuing your edits, to avoid an edit war. Thank you! PeakerPan (talk) 01:12, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 my apologies, it appears to be 201.214.251.133 that added the possibly biased source and did the revert. My mistake, I thought it was you that did it. PeakerPan (talk) 01:45, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ PeakerPan : I consider that if the music section says that Rave Music can be any EDM played at a rave, BUT there was once a genre that was called Rave in the early 90's (UK Breakbeat Hardcore), it's very biased not to include Belgian "Rave Techno" also as a genre that was called like that during the same era (that is a fact). I understand that you don't want to associate the term Rave to a genre or style of EDM, but you are already doing this exception, that i think it's logical and historically accurate, but by the same criteria the Belgian "Rave Techno" style must be included.

As stated by diferent sources, the Hardcore Techno sound that emerged in belgium after New Beat was the pioneer in the use of riff stabs and the use of the sounds like the Hoover and other iconic sounds associated to the "Rave sound" during these years. In fact, the Mentasm sound came from Joey Beltram from Brooklyn, when he signed with belgian producers (decission that wasn't a coincidence, because as Joey Beltram itself states in TSOB documentary, he was trying to emulate New Beat and Belgian EDM sounds). Early acts that adopted this riff stabs style was Quadropohonia, L.A. Style, Channel X, and Fierce Ruling Diva, in the year 1990, before this reached the UK (all this can be traced just checking in music databases like discogs, that are pretty exhaustive and accurate).

It was after this contribution, that the UK scene sampled many of this stabs and added it to the breakbeat hardcore they were doing. This is something that you can check in unbiased data in discogs, and most of the UK records that started using those sounds are from 1991 and onwards. And because of that, both genres shared a lot of sounds, but being partially different scenes, different countries and styles. And is to this kind of sounds that both are associated as "Rave" music.

Why not lump the belgian sound under the "Oldskool Rave" or "Breakbeat Hardcore" umbrella? Well, because it isn't breaks, it hasnt any. It has a 4/4 rhythm. That's why it is "Hardcore Techno" or "Rave Techno", as it was called in many compilations at the time (check discogs, there is a link below).

Sources:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ez7b4n/the-untold-story-of-joey-beltram-the-techno-titan-behind-the-90s-most-iconic-rave-anthems

https://www.toucanmusic.com/articles/ukhardcore/ (Netlabel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Beltram

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_beat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sound_of_Belgium (might be romantic, but it's not biased in terms of facts or timeline).

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/TheScientist/rym-ultimate-box-set-belgian-techno/

https://music.ishkur.com/ (Rave section)

https://standrewsradio.com/belgian-house-the-unsung-hero-of-european-rave-culture/]https://www.electronicbeats.net/a-lesson-on-belgian-new-beat-history-with-peter-van-hoesen/

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/01/new-beat-feature

https://www.discogs.com/es/lists/Rave-Techno-Compilations-Early-Hardcore-Techno-from-90-to-93/950572 (to show there's a lot of evidence that the belgian contribution is relevant, the main acts and artists appears in almost all the records that has the terms "Techno" and "Rave", you can check for yourselves using the filters in the database for the years 1990-1993)

To say that some style of music was called "Rave" during the early 90's, and that it considered both the UK and the Belgian sound, isn't saying that raves are restricted to those two styles . It's just what happened at that time, people called that "Rave music" (in fact the article says that now, but just focusing in the UK).

So, i consider that this must be included at the "Music" section at least in some way. If you disagree to atribute the origins to the belgians (even when the UK sampled the belgians) is something that can be discussed, but totally erasing them from the history of the "Rave" term... that is very very biased. I can agree that this sound isn't very sophisticated and can be cheesey, but that isn't an objective criteria for excluding it.

I know your are trying to have an unbiased article and are discussing this inclussion in good faith, and that's why i'm backing up my claim to include the belgians in some way.

Hope you agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neki9999 (talk • contribs) 02:51, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 I've moved your response into the original section here to keep the discussion comprehensible, I hope you don't mind. Concerning your points, I completely agree that Belgium should be accurately represented in the Music section, but I don't see anything in the links you've provided (even the ones that are unreliable by Wikipedia standards) that would warrant phrases like "The genre "rave", also known as hardcore by early ravers, emerged first in Belgium", "The UK take on the genre" and "creating a style different from the 4/4 beat belgian rave". Wikipedia articles strive to be neutral and should not be written from the point of view of a person or from a sense of national pride as this often skews the tone. See Wikipedia:Point of view. The way you presented your new additions completely changed the tone of the article to strongly imply that Belgium is the origin point of the "rave" genre, which is debatable and might mislead someone reading it. Should you wish to continue with your edits (I hope you do), please be careful to make it clear in your final text that you are citing the opinion of a (reliable) reference and not your own when you make such statements. See Wikipedia:Point of view. Also, as it seems that you've recently created your account just to edit this article may I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the correct formatting of references (and Wikipedia guidelines in general) before engaging in any serious editing? See Wikipedia:Editing guidelines. I look forward to your future contribution about Belgium to this article and to Wikipedia in general. PeakerPan (talk) 04:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 Just to avoid you future frustration I'd like to bring your attention to the fact that generally speaking, blogs, interviews, and sites like Discogs and even Wikipedia are not considered reliable sources, as they are user-generated content. See WP:Reliability for more info. PeakerPan (talk) 04:07, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 It might also be beneficial to read this section WP:NOR to understand the policy of "No original research" before proceeding. I'd also like to add that by reverting your changes my intention was not to erase all references to the Belgian contribution, but rather to preserve the current article from apparent original research. The simplest way is to roll back all the changes until you provide valid references and ensure the text follows the three core content policies No original research, Neutral point of view and Verifiability. I hope this explanation helps you understand why I reverted your changes. PeakerPan (talk) 04:39, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research, Writing, and the Production of Knowledge

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 June 2022 and 6 August 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Johannaort29 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Johannaort29 (talk) 06:31, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Rave

Early nineties, I raved across the south of England in the late eighties. Staring 1987 ✌️ maybe needs an edit 94.173.17.182 (talk) 19:46, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hanger 13

Hanger 13 link goes to the wrong place. 84.68.214.241 (talk) 11:31, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Now fixed to Ayr Pavilion. ResonantDis_tortion 11:55, 28 October 2023 (UTC)