Talk:Tucson, Arizona/Archive 2

Node to a nightingale

It seems that node is attempting to modify the article in the same way again, without any further discussion, just a revert war. It seems to me that last time, the discussion ended without any real support for node's version. Perhaps further discussion is required. Either that, or the reverting should just stop. Thanks. kmccoy (talk) 02:56, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

kmccoy, I really hope you realise that ending "thanks" to the end of a message doesn't automatically make it better somehow. I just love how many times in this discussion you have said particularly poisonous things followed with "Thanks!", as if that is supposed to make it all better. --Node 00:37, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree the reverting should stop - but the article version should be the version for which there is support. If node continues changing the article, it should be reverted. --ABQCat 05:15, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I guess I don't see it so much a revert "war" as revert "discipline." It's certainly not worth getting steamed up about, though it is probably worth holding the line, firmly and gently. Consider: Node is fifteen years old. Having the consensus go strongly against you, being the lonely voice on your side, it stings. A lot. Hey, it still stings at forty-five kinda like it stings at fifteen, but one develops a certain perspective over the life run. If the principle of consensus is important to us, then it is probably worth working together to see that the consensus decision is enforced. However, if Node is also important to us—and he should be (see Wikilove)—then it is worth imparting this mini-Wiki-lesson in socialization evenhandedly, with humor and patience. As in, "Node, you're probably not going to get your way on this, but you're still a fine young man." --Gary D 08:49, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

I don't see it either way - as noted in edit histories, there is new data available. Perhaps if you were to read these edit histories, you'd see that this isn't because I'm a sore-loser homeschooled (for the past year only, not my whole life) little brat like you think. --Node 00:37, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You're not a brat, Node, you're a fine young man. --Gary D 00:52, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

On current protection, suggestions

Node, I am willing to accept the origins of the name of the town under the following compromise. Note that rather than a blanket statement, it is descriptive of the origins of the name.

"Tucson was founded in...(etc). The O'Odham Indians who inhabited the community when it was visited in 1692 by the Spanish missionary Father Eusebio Kino, called their village Chuk-Shon, which has been translated to mean "Dark Spring" or "at the foot of the Black Hill." The latter is probably a reference to the mostly volcanic hills on the west side of the city. The current city name of "Tucson" comes, via Spanish, from the original O'Odham name for the city."

I am not supportive of a parenthetical inclusion in the first paragraph, as O'Odham is NOT an official language of Tucson, Arizona, or the United States. Now, that's not to say it's not used locally (especially in indian communitieson and in enclaves in the city), but the political name of the city is Tucson. One more interesting note is that the O'Odham tribe themselves refer to "Tucson" on their webpage. I'd say this is a blow to the assertion that the city is also widely known as Chuk-shon. If, when referring to the political entity "tucson", the O'Odham refer more often to "Chuk-Shon" than "Tucson" I'd be interested in changing the wording of my suggestion slightly, but I still would not advocate or support a first paragraph parenthetical inclusion. --ABQCat 20:32, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is silly, the paragraph makes it sound as if the O'odham all left or something in the interim, and you continue to pretend you know O'odham ñiok by insisting the correct spelling is "Chuk-Shon" when that is depricated.

English is not an official language of Tucson, Arizona, or the United States. The O'odham language has official status in parts of the city but most notably in places most people consider part of Tucson, such as the mission and the area surrounding it.

The reason it is referred to "Tucson" on their webpage is because their webpage is in English, and the English name for the city, at least in modern times, is almost always "Tucson".

This city was first settled by O'odham, who named it Cuk Ṣon, and they have inhabited it continuously ever since with no interruptions. If you don't believe the city is universally called called Cuk Ṣon in the O'odham language, please argue that with Dr. Ofelia Zepeda, 621-8294, who will be more than happy to correct you and is an expert on the subject.

--Node 23:16, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Node, this was a compromise attempt. I'm disinclined to ever attempt compromise on this subject again considering your personal attacks on the subject. Suggest changes to my suggestion rather than discarding it wholesale. Your method of unyielding criticism is really not progressing this discussion anywhere. And as for the chuk-son, I was going off memory and don't know character codes to bring up your version, though I wouldn't oppose it. I know the O'Odham didn't all leave - they're settled nearby. The paragraph can reflect that. The webpage is in english - without the option to view it in the O'odham language. This suggests to me that English might be a widely understood language among the O'odham - enough so that Tucson is the name for the city? Again, I have no problem indicating the historical name, etymology, etc. Note, however, that New York is not noted as "aka Nuevo York" despite the LARGE hispanic community which lives there. It's also not referred to as "New Amsterdam" in the equivalent Dutch, despite the fact that the Dutch founded it, didn't just go away, and descendants still live nearby. Please, suggest changes to the suggested paragraph above - lets work towards a compromise here. --ABQCat 23:43, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Personal attacks"...? Yes, like when I said "Wow ABQCat, you're an idiot since you disagree with me"? Or is it something that I actually said?

The O'odham didn't "settle nearby". Reservations do not reflect where all Native Americans live. Plenty of O'odham live in Tucson, I am beginning to wonder if you really live here as between 5 and 15 out of 100 in Tucson, and more in some areas, are Native American, mostly Tohono O'odham but some Yaqui. Surely you have noticed this? Most webpages of the Burmese Government are exclusively in English, even though Burmese is the language of Burma. The reason for this is that the intended audience is people from OUTSIDE of Burma, similarly it is assumed anybody wanting the sort of basic information provided at the tribal website would come from people who don't speak the language because they could be expected to know that sort of stuff already.

"Nuevo York" is simply a calque from the English "New York", immigrant communities in the past have integrated over one or two generations at least to a great degree and thus in relatively little time the name may be a thing of the past (you might say the same thing about the O'odham language, however currently its number of speakers is growing rather than shrinking and this is without the help of an influx of immigrants), New York was not first inhabited by Spanish-speakers who called it "Nueva York".

As for Nieuw Amsterdam, please see New Amsterdam. The Dutch name is treated even better than my proposal treats the O'odham language, even though the Dutch who actually stayed in the area have been almost completely linguistically and culturally assimilated with all current Dutch speakers in New York being from more recent waves of immigration, it actually has its own article. An article for the O'odham name of Tucson is neither possible nor reasonable - it is technically impossible until the English Wikipedia switches to Unicode, until there is a sizable section of information that could be moved there regarding the O'odham history of Tucson it isn't reasonable (and how much information *is* there? O'odham people may have built impressive settlements and a couple of forts, but did they have a university? there isn't really a lot to tell except the story surrounding the settlement of the area, the significance of the area to the community, and things like that).

Your proposal isn't a compromise at all, it gives worse treatment to the O'odham language and people than the current version of the article, and both of your translations are sorely wrong. "ṣon" can indeed mean "spring" (as it does in "al ṣon", one of the possible origins of the name of Arizona), but any O'odham will tell you that in the name Cuk Ṣon it is referring to hills. It does not mean "at the foot of the black hill", it means "black hill" (or according to some "black foothills"). No "at the foot of" in there - does "Tucson" in English mean in Spanish "en la ciudad que se llama Tucson"?

If you want to argue issues of language and history, that is fine and I am prepared, but I think it would be much better if you called Dr Zepeda who is an expert on the subject (at least of the language, I don't know what she knows about the history but she's definitely more knowledgable than I am). If you ask her "what is Tucson called in the O'odham language?" she will tell you "chook shone", if you ask her how that is spelled she will tell you "c-u-k s-dot-o-n" (I can't guarantee the exact wording). If you ask her if anybody still calls it that today, the answer will be "yes", if you ask her if any residents of the city call it that the answer will be "yes", if you ask her how long it has been called that the answer will be something which is greater than 400 years (I don't know exactly how long, I think it's somewhere between 500 and 1000 years ago).

Indeed it may not originally have been pronounced the way it is now, at one time it was most likely pronounced in the local dialect "Tuk Son" (ttbomk), but as was noted in the Mesa talkpage, one thing about Wikipedia is the ability to note present realities.

My proposal for the first 2 paragraphs:

Tucson (Tohono O'odham: Cuk Ṣon) is a city located in Pima County, Arizona. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 486,699, with a metropolitan-area population of 843,746. A July 1, 2003 Census estimate puts the city's population at 507,658. It is the largest city in southern Arizona, and the second largest in the state after Phoenix. Joined by I-10, Phoenix and Tucson are the endpoints of a 100-mile corridor of increasingly suburbanized areas. Tucson is the county seat of Pima County⁶.

The name, pronounced /tusʊn/, comes, via Spanish, from the O'odham name for the city which means "Black Foothills," a reference to the mostly volcanic mountains on the west side of Tucson. The most notable of these foothills is Sentinel Peak, better known as "A Mountain" because it sports a large letter A in honor of the University of Arizona. Tucson is sometimes referred to as "The Old Pueblo".

Now, perhaps we can propose back and forth until we reach a suitable compromise.

--Node 00:50, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think I can see fit to agree to the version you suggest IF you include the cultural significance of the fact that there is even a O'odham language version of the name. By that I mean, explain (as you did to me, something I already knew, but would be beneficial in the article) where the O'odham live (reservation, communities, and percentages in the community (census data here would help, but it likely doesn't differentiate between different tribes)). Also link "Spanish" to Spanish language. Also, can we include a pronunciation for the O'odham name? It's not obvious to me how to pronounce "Ṣ" - I believe this is IPA? I'd also like inclusion of the history of settlement in the area. Here's my suggestion - with the points I outlined. To include the information in a complete manner, I've brought some info in from the "history" section, but some repetition is ok.

Not IPA - the IPA character for the same sound is I believe ʂ, with the tongue further back than for the English "sh".

Tucson (Tohono O'odham: Cuk Ṣon) is a city located in Pima County, Arizona. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 486,699, with a metropolitan-area population of 843,746. A July 1, 2003 Census estimate puts the city's population at 507,658. It is the largest city in southern Arizona, and the second largest in the state after Phoenix. Joined by I-10, Phoenix and Tucson are the endpoints of a 100-mile corridor of increasingly suburbanized areas. Tucson is the county seat of Pima County⁶.

The area around Tucson has been inhabited since pre-historic times and more recently by groups such as the Tohono O'odham (who may be descendants of the prehistoric inhabitants) and the Yaqui. (Indeed XXX PERCENT or YYY O'odham and Yaqui still live nearby at ### and inside the city. - this is a bit which needs facts for inclusion, i feel.) In 1692, Jesuit missionary Eusebio Francisco Kino visited the area, which the O'odham and Yaqui called "Cuk Ṣon", building the Mission San Xavier del Bac in 1700. The Spanish established a presidio (fort) in 1776 and the town came to called "Tucson."

The name, (pronounced /tusʊn/), comes, via Spanish, from the O'odham name for the city which means "Black Foothills," a reference to the mostly volcanic mountains on the west side of Tucson. The most notable of these foothills is Sentinel Peak, better known as "A Mountain" because it sports a large letter A in honor of the University of Arizona. Tucson is sometimes referred to as "The Old Pueblo".

Two United States Navy vessels have been named USS Tucson in honor of the city.

--ABQCat 01:23, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Tucson (Tohono O'odham: Cuk Ṣon) is a city located in Pima County, Arizona. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 486,699, with a metropolitan-area population of 843,746. A July 1, 2003 Census estimate puts the city's population at 507,658. It is the largest city in southern Arizona, and the second largest in the state after Phoenix. Joined by I-10, Phoenix and Tucson are the endpoints of a 100-mile corridor of increasingly suburbanized areas. Tucson is the county seat of Pima County⁶.

The area around Tucson has been inhabited since pre-historic times and more recently by groups such as the Tohono O'odham (who may be descendants of the prehistoric inhabitants) and the Yaqui, most of whom arrived in the late 1800s fleeing persecution in Mexico. (### O'odham currently live in the city as well as in the nearby San Xavier reservation and Tohono O'odham Nation. 6800 Yaqui currently live in the city, largely in Old Pascua and Barrio Libre, and on the nearby Pascua Yaqui reservation and in Yoem Pueblo in Marana.) In 1692, Jesuit missionary Eusebio Francisco Kino visited the area, which the O'odham called "Cuk Ṣon", building the Mission San Xavier del Bac in 1700. The Spanish established a presidio (fort) in 1776 and the town came to called "Tucson."

The name, (pronounced /tusʊn/), comes, via Spanish, from the O'odham name for the city which means "Black Foothills," a reference to the mostly volcanic mountains on the west side of Tucson. The most notable of these foothills is Sentinel Peak, better known as "A Mountain" because it sports a large letter A in honor of the University of Arizona. Tucson is sometimes referred to as "The Old Pueblo".

(I don't know what the name of the Yaqui barrios in Tucson are, I know there is a Yaqui barrio in Gilbert called Guadalupe) --Node 02:06, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Old Pasqua and Barrio Libre - source. --ABQCat 03:59, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps a vote is in order if and when a compromise proposal is reached; there may be, hanging around, some of the editors who participanted in the original discussions who may be interested in weighing in. I think a larger consensus would be a good thing here. Also perhaps, we could vote on a single system that could be used for both Tucson and Mesa. And finally in the "perhaps family," we could always do an RfC. --Gary D 19:59, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

Gary, I agree on the idea for a vote. Since I was involved in creating the compromise introduction with Node, it would be more useful to hear comments and votes from other wikipedians. --ABQCat 21:03, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kino School

The material on Kino School is a merge from an article entitled Kino school. The material merged is entirely the work of a single author and is in the exact form created by that author. The page history of Kino school up to and including the merged material is:

(cur) (last) 14:35, 1 Nov 2004 216.39.176.97 (By Elliot Berry) (cur) (last) 14:32, 1 Nov 2004 216.39.176.97

[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 21:20, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I know the separate article is the topic of a VfD discussion, but I'm deleting the Kino sections, as it's either trivial (compared to the rest of the article) or patent rubbish, and I see no reason to leave the article on a major US city disfigured for any longer than is absolutely necessary. People can check the history if they want to see them. Average Earthman 21:28, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Does this "the exact form created by that author" stuff need to be included? It wouldn't be true once somebody edited it. RickK 21:47, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

One Tucsonan's Rant About All This

I've lived in Tucson since I was born here in 1981. I don't see the piont of all this bickering about inclusion of 'Chuk Shon' in the article. Chuk Shon should be included somewhere, probably within an explanation of the origin of Tucson's name, though not misleading the reader into believing that Tucson is commonly also refered to as Chuk Shon. I think it's fine the way it is. If this explanation belongs in Wikitionary, just include a link to it.

I have seen Tucson also spelled 'Tuxon', in a lowrider bike(bicycle) documentary i saw on Access Tucson. --worm

I don't see what's so misleading about it - it says (Tohono O'odham: Cuk Ṣon), not (also known as Cuk Ṣon).

While you, an English speaker, may never have heard anybody refer to it as Cuk Ṣon, this is a second name for it more common than Tuxon (and is different in pronunciation as well as spelling), although not among English speakers. If you don't believe it is a "common second name", you can call Ofelia Zepeda at the number I gave above (a local number). --Node 00:33, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I should probably add that this isn't just something I've read in a book, I have actually heard people refer to it by this name, and this name is used by over 35000 people which, when compared with the population of the city itself, is significant. If I stop on I-10 just outside of Phoenix, there is a gas station where I can stop and when I come in, the clerk - who is an O'odham - might ask "bap do hi?" and I can say "Cuk Ṣon ui". In Casa Grande, I might meet an O'odham at an outlet store, and I could ask them "bap do api ki?" and the reply might be "Añi añ am ki Cuk Ṣon". On the road to Nogales, I might ask an O'odham family heading the opposite direction "bap do hihi?" and the response might be "Cuk Ṣon ui". The O'odham language is one of only a couple dozen native American languages from north of Mexico that is growing in number of speakers rather than shrinking. Often at a walmart you may think somebody is speaking Spanish, but if you don't know Spanish they might be speaking O'odham, if you do speak Spanish then they probably aren't because you'd not think it was spanish :p --Node 00:39, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

personally, i agree with you. in the interests of appeasing a very very very passionate person on the subject of native american place names (mesa, tucson, etc) i've decided to work towards a compromise that prevents a simple injection of Chuk Shon into the first paragraph without any explanation whatsoever. i think the compromise replacement for the introduction is pretty good at doing that. do you have any thoughts for improving it? thanks. --ABQCat 09:07, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm only speaking for myself. If Chuk Shon(or whatever spelling) is indeed a "common second name" then refer to it as such. I personally haven't been exposed to the name yet, other than here. As for 'Tuxon', that was only included because I thought others might find the spelling interesting. --worm 15:35 ish 14 Dec

Proposed introduction, votes, comments

As a result of some back and forth editing with Node, we have come to what I think is an excellent compromise between our two viewpoints (Node, if you're still in favor of the following version, please make sure you note your support, or concerns if any). It replaces the current introduction and attempts to address the following issues:

• Present O'odham name for Tucson prominently (as it is culturally significant)
• Explain the cultural significance:
  • Barrios, nearby reservations (they didn't just up and leave)
  • Population numbers for Yaqui & O'odham
• Expand the history of Tucson presented in the introduction with emphasis on:
  • Native history, settlement of the area
  • Spanish colonization, etymology of current English name

Tucson (Tohono O'odham: Cuk Ṣon) is a city located in Pima County, Arizona. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 486,699, with a metropolitan-area population of 843,746. A July 1, 2003 Census estimate puts the city's population at 507,658. It is the largest city in southern Arizona, and the second largest in the state after Phoenix. Joined by I-10, Phoenix and Tucson are the endpoints of a 100-mile corridor of increasingly suburbanized areas. Tucson is the county seat of Pima County⁶.

The area around Tucson has been inhabited since pre-historic times and more recently by groups such as the Tohono O'odham (who may be descendants of the prehistoric inhabitants) and the Yaqui, most of whom arrived in the late 1800s fleeing persecution in Mexico. (### O'odham currently live in the city as well as in the nearby San Xavier reservation and Tohono O'odham Nation. 6800 Yaqui currently live in the city, largely in Old Pascua and Barrio Libre, and on the nearby Pascua Yaqui reservation and in Yoem Pueblo in Marana.) In 1692, Jesuit missionary Eusebio Francisco Kino visited the area, which the O'odham called "Cuk Ṣon", building the Mission San Xavier del Bac in 1700. The Spanish established a presidio (fort) in 1776 and the town came to be called "Tucson."

The name, (pronounced /tusʊn/), comes, via Spanish, from the O'odham name for the city which means "Black Foothills," a reference to the mostly volcanic mountains on the west side of Tucson. The most notable of these foothills is Sentinel Peak, better known as "A Mountain" because it sports a large letter A in honor of the University of Arizona. Tucson is sometimes referred to as "The Old Pueblo".

Comments from those interested / involved in this discussion would be welcome. --ABQCat 01:17, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would modify the "concerns" as follows:

• Present O'odham name for Tucson prominently (as it is culturally significant) - not only is it culturally significant, but it is used by 35000 people in and near Tucson as the first or even only (there are 500 monolinguals, and far more with very limited English proficiency) for the city.
• Explain the cultural significance:
  • Barrios, nearby reservations (they didn't just up and leave) - O'odham and Yaqui people live throughout the city. Barrios (for the Yaqui) are simply concentrations of Yaqui populations which the federal government recognises as official Yaqui barrios and which are historically Yaqui areas. Reservations house both people who never lived in Tucson and people who once lived in Tucson or whose ancestors lived in Tucson, more of the former but a good deal of the latter as well, because as the area became crowded by "milga:n o'odham" (white people) and their ancestral lands upon which they needed to hunt and plant crops were gradually being chipped away at from the edges.
  • Population numbers for Yaqui & O'odham - I know that there must be some census data for the number of Tohono O'odham people living in Tucson, however the best I can think of that would be easily accessable would be for Tohono O'odham living in Pima County, which would include the Tohono O'odham Nation, the San Xavier reservation (Wa:k Cekṣanĭ) and other non-reservation, non-Tucson locales in Pima County.
• Expand the history of Tucson presented in the introduction with emphasis on:
  • Native history, settlement of the area - *european* settlement
  • Spanish colonization, etymology of current English name - Also important I think is a section on Mexican-O'odham relations, and a couple sentences on why the Yaqui left the baja coast to come all the way to Tucson.

What say we give it a day for comments (I don't know if very many people are actively looking in on this page at the moment), and then "officially" open the voting tomorrow around 00:00 UTC by posting an RfC and maybe contacting editors involved in the original discussion? I am floating a competing proposal below. --Gary D 02:44, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

• • Your proposal is just a reorganised version of the current article, actually removing some of the important information in the version ABQWildcat and I came up with, and you merge what should be two separate paragraphs into one long, unruly paragraph. The "Miscellaneous" information looks very awkward by itself, and as it is fairly important to the city, I think it *does* belong in the first paragraph.

"Your proposal is just a reorganised version of the current article." I would not call that an unfair characterization. --Gary D 10:35, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Tucson (pronounced /tusʊn/) is a city and the county seat of Pima County, Arizona. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 486,699, with a metropolitan-area population of 843,746. A July 1, 2003 Census estimate puts the city's population at 507,658. It is the largest city in southern Arizona, and the second largest in the state after Phoenix. The name Tucson comes via Spanish from the O'odham, cuk Ṣon, meaning "Black Foothills," a reference to the mostly volcanic mountains on the west side of the city. The most notable of these foothills is Sentinel Peak, better known as "A Mountain" because it sports a large letter A in honor of the University of Arizona. Tucson is sometimes referred to as "The Old Pueblo".

==History==

Tucson was originally inhabited around 7000 BC by early Paleo-Indians, and later replaced by groups designated by archaeologists as the Hohokam. Jesuit missionary Eusebio Francisco Kino visited the area in 1692, and founded the Mission San Xavier del Bac in 1700. The Spanish established a presidio (fort) in 1776 and the town came to be called "Tucson." Tucson became a part of Mexico after Mexico gained independence from Spain in 1821. ... [rest of section unchanged]

* * *

==Demographics==

[Add at end of first paragraph in section] The Native American inhabitants in the area include [quantity] Tohono O'odham, living in the city, on the nearby San Xavier reservation, and in the Tohono O'odham Nation, who may be descendants of the prehistoric inhabitants, as well as 6,800 Yaqui, living in the city (largely in the Old Pascua and Barrio Libre neighborhoods), on the nearby Pascua Yaqui reservation, and in the Yoem Pueblo in the town of Marana, most of whom trace their local ancestry back to arrivals in the late 1800s fleeing persecution in Mexico.

* * *

==Miscellaneous==

[Put this section in just before the "famous people" section]

Tucson is joined by I-10 to Phoenix, and forms one endpoint of a 100-mile corridor of increasingly suburbanized areas along that highway which once traversed largely undeveloped desert.

Two United States Navy vessels have been named USS Tucson in honor of the city.

---

Gary, I like that the information which I wanted addressed in the article is included in your revision.

More inclusion is always better; I don't think any editor had a problem with what Node wanted to include, just where he wanted to include it.

I have a small problem with the way formatting will ultimately come out. Because the introduction isn't under a top-level header, it ends up above the table of contents, and the information that I wanted prominently presented (agreeably, some of it COULD be moved down slightly to another section) such as cultural significance of the O'odham and Yaqui (and hence the reason for including the other name) would not be.

Yeah, the call is always what information is central enough to merit that headline billing in the "news report" style of article writing. I just don't think a particular racial group, even the original one, in a modern American metropolis makes that cut in this context. If we put race up front, the article tells us there are actually more blacks and Asians by percentage in Tucson, so natives might have to get behind those other two groups' discussions anyway.

The difference is that information on O'odham and Yaqui peoples is not just relating to ethnic groups, it relates to history, culture, and more.

And indeed, all that history, culture, more, should be included in the article. --Gary D 10:35, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

It should be noted that it doesn't address Node's sole criticism of the page - including a parenthetical O'odham langauge version of the name. I'm not sure I'd require that for a final version of this article, but in the interests of compromise I can see allowing the parenthetical as long as the cultural significance of the parenthetical is addressed in the introduction.

The parenthetical is actually where Node got crosswise with the editor group in the first place. A first sentence O'odham parenthetical just doesn't fly from a encyclopedic news-significance standpoint. We could always mention in the demographics section that the O'odham still sometimes/often call the city that, though.

"The editor group"? ABQWildcat has been the first editor involved in this discussion who is also regularly involved in editing the page, as well as the first who claims any real knowledge of the city other than myself. kmccoy is the one who started this when I brought it up in #wikipedia. After that, he went trolling for support, complaining to "Buster" (who appears to be absent now) and RickK, with other users appearing later without his invitation. Prior to this, and subsequent to this, kmccoy has not been active in the development of this page or any other Arizona-related page.

From an encyclopedic standpoint, what is wrong with it?

Insufficiently significant to merit inclusion in the first sentence. --Gary D 10:35, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

My mother is a technical writer by profession, and she says that there isn't anything wrong with it. It doesn't indicate that it is a common English name, it features prominently language indicating that it is not an English name to avoid confusion. Brittanica follows similar practice, as do most other Wikipedia articles where there is an indigenous name with historical and cultural significance. A "news-significance standpoint" is irrelevant on Wikipedia with the exception of Template:In the news, if you care about news-significance, you can go to WikiNews and help there.

All (good) Wikipedia articles analogize a news-significance structure in that they proceed generally from most significant to least significant information; this is seen especially in the use of the first paragraph for establishing definitional essentials. --Gary D 10:35, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Also, if we're including a demographics section (not totally necessary, but if that's the way we include the native american statistics) we need to address more than just native american populations. Hispanic, African American, Asian, Pacific Islander, Indian, Pakistani, etc - where do we draw the line?

This is the standard demographics section on all cities that got robo-imported from the U.S. Census. We draw the line at whoever wants to do the work on presenting Tucson-related information on all those other groups. As always, more is better.

Actually, a "demographics" section is included in all US place articles. I don't think there is any particular group with perhaps the exception of Mexicans/Hispanics/Latinos with any historical or cultural impact on Tucson which is relevant at a local level, but I may be wrong here.

Also, an integrated paragraph with the information presented similarly to my proposal seems to be more along the lines of how other encyclopedias present the information. Of course, on Wikipedia we have our own standards, and I'd have to look around a bit to see how the proposals stack up with regards to their presentation of information. --ABQCat 03:01, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would suggest (of course I would!) that my version is actually the more standard encyclopedic attack: Essential identification blurb, history, today's details, miscellany. I think looking around is a great idea.

I suggest you are wrong. All of Brittanica, as well as most other Wikipedia articles on places, have a layout similar to my proposed layout.

I propose we move the two proposals into a definite, clean section tomorrow to aid any incoming voters directed from RfC or elsewhere in navigating to the vote. --Gary D 03:25, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

And it would probably be more helpful if your proposal looked more like it would be expected to display inline, that would probably be to your advantage.--Node 06:36, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, we could do that. I was using an excerpts format to present the differences concisely, but the increased readability from filling in the other portions may be worth it. --Gary D 10:35, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

A further suggestion If deemed necessary by a consensus of votes, I would be agreeable to leaving only the first paragraph of the compromise-paragraph Node and I constructed, and moving the other 2 paragraphs into an immediately-following "history" section. That's quite similar to the format of Albuquerque, New Mexico which was already in place when I first discovered wikipedia (yea those ages ago...). I would rather the introduction be presented as presented above (Abqwildcat, Node compromise intro), however. --ABQCat 08:28, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't think you should worry about compromising with me, ABQ, since you have already put in such good work with Node, and we would just be wrangling in a near-vacuum. Let's get the fresh blood in and see what that gets going; I'm sure they will have plenty to say and suggest, and will not just statically vote and leave. --Gary D 10:35, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Very good, I do see your point there. Have you listed Tucson, Arizona for an RfC? Also, (as I'm not quite sure how) do you think perhaps some of the sections of this page need to be archived, perhaps? It's getting a bit long (getting that famous length warning). It would be quite easy to point people to the archive and provide fresh space for comments and the two proposals (as of now). --ABQCat 20:26, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

1. I have not listed on RfC yet. I was going to do so sometime after 00:00 UTC today, in about three hours from now.
2. However, I'm in no hurry, so if you want to kick things around a little more before we list it, we could always put it off one or more days.
3. I propose we suggest a seven-day voting period. Sometimes people coming in have so many ideas that new proposals and edits proliferate and the vote gets derailed and becomes meaningless (which might be a good thing, leading to a new sythesis). However, we could at least start with this proposed timeframe and a clean and definite voting space on this page, so that if voting is all someone wants to do, they can do that easily, too.
4. I propose we approach an administrator and have the page unprotected, in order to facilitate people trying things out on the article page with alternative versions and edits, and seeing how they look. The worst that would happen is Node puts up his old version, and that's not the end of the world.
5. On archiving the sections above from this page, I would leave them here for now. At 70KB, we have long ago blown out the 32KB rule, and the sections above contain the whole history of the controversy with Node, so editors coming in can scan them and quickly get the whole story, without having to page away.

Let me know what you think. Feel free to contact an administrator for the unprotect. Feel free to put off the RfC and the vote if you want. If you do want to go ahead with the vote today, please go ahead and put the candidates together in a new, titled section at the bottom of the page, and put a Support: space under each. BTW, nice working with you. --Gary D 21:56, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Let's slip the RfC/vote a day: No one's been back to comment since I wrote the above, and I'm busy anyway, so if you want to go ahead and place the RfC and do the other stuff now, feel free, but I'm happy to let it go until tomorrow at 00:00 UTC, so I personally won't do anything 'til then. --Gary D 01:32, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)