Talk:Zakynthos

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Soon will be an interesting photo album dedicated to the island in this address: http://www.geocities.com/zakynthos/index.html I ll trying my best to finish it as soon as posible to offer a minimum photo tribute to this marvelus place covering old and today times.

When will it be live?

Geocities is gone so never I guess.-Schnurrbart (talk) 02:38, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Some minor edits

Just wanted to let you know i did some grammer fixes towards the end of the article. I had a little trouble deciphering a few of your comments. If I mangled it, let me know.

--David Kain 15:51, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Newly created

The newly created article at Flag of Zakynthos - is it possible to include something about the flag somewhere in the article? -- Francs2000 | Talk 28 June 2005 16:04 (UTC)

Zakynthos or Zákynthos

I wonder if any body could tell me which one of these is right as the article is called Zakinthos bit on Microsoft AutoRoute 2005 it is spelt Zákinthos. London UK 18:01, 07 Mar 2006 (UTC/GMT)

I belive it is the later of the two, however, that can not be displayed on WP because not all computers support an international typeface. Merry Christmas- Kaspazes 16:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Since it's just greek written in latin (where there is no a with a tone) I think the correct one is plain Zakynthos. The tone has use only in greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realbouss (talk • contribs) 11:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Shipwreck Bay

Comment: The article has two spellings of the Bay: "Navago" and "Navagio".

from Jimsun, 11 Sept 2006

Why does Zante link here?

Zante redirects to this article without any explanation here. Is this a misdirected link, or is Zante an alternative name for the island, or what?. -- Chris j wood 18:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Zante is a short form of Zakinthos, most commonly heard by the British. AxG (talk) ^{18:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)}

Us americans do it too. Merry Christmas- Kaspazes 16:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Zante is the Itallian name for the island, the islanders naturally refer to it by it's Greek name - Zakynthos. it seems that the tour oporators prefer to refer to it's bygone Itallian name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gladstone100 (talk • contribs) 13:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Large number of red links

Wikipedia is not a tourist guide or a directory. I suggest we don't need so many links to local entities like radio stations in the second half of the article; and certainly not when they lack their own WP articles. (A profusion of external links looks more like an advertising directory than a Wikipedia article). We also shouldn't require the complete list of football clubs, since there is already a separate article on the Zakynthos Football Clubs Association that can be referred to. Let me know if anyone objects to my taking away entries that lack their own WP articles. EdJohnston (talk) 15:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I absolutely agree, either there is no bias to the 'Communications' listing (which there appears to be as the free on-line community magazine, written by the community for the community keeps getting deleted despite it's lack of commerciality unlike the radio stations - which by the way are all from the same media company mogul Stigma). this listing must be treated fairly or not feature! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gladstone100 (talk • contribs) 13:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Per 'Wikipedia is not a directory,' I have gone ahead and removed the individual football clubs and the 'Communications' section. I would welcome any further discussion on that. Regarding Gladstone100's comment, I'd need to be persuaded that a free online community magazine deserves coverage here, unless it has been covered by reliable sources that show it to be notable. Inclusion here should depend on its importance, not whether it is commercial or not. EdJohnston (talk) 04:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

This article is poorly cited and needs a major edit

Althought this page is a really nice effort so Zakynthos will have a reference in Wikipedia, as the above have mentioned it it looks like an advertising directory rather than a wp article. it is not cited at all and it contains a couple of inacurate facts. for example in the list of important people in the end you'll see the surname tsoukalas repeating 3 times refered as "royalties" of zakinthos. Since i am Zakitnhian myself i do not recognize those names and certainly we do not have any "royalties". Also the writer says that we live under democracy for the last 650 years which is utterly incorect unless he things that the consegio (council) of the nobility of the island consisting of 150 people most of which of venetian or norman ancestry represents the entire island during the venetian rule. I intent during the next days to re-write and change the entire page.

Layout of the page after the changes:

1) General information about zakynthos: where is located and it's climate 2) Geology of the island : what are the main geological characteristics of the island and formation facts 3) History of the name "Zakynthos" and where it derives 4) Divisions of the island (it will be kept as it is) 5) History of Zakynthos island.

  5.1 Earliest settlements - Colonization of the island - Participarion in the Trojan war
  5.2 Ancient history up to the Roman Conquest
  5.3 Roman Conquest of the island - Byzantine Empire 
  5.4 Latin Conquest of the island
  5.5 Venetian Rule 1485
  5.6 Napoleonic - Russo-turkish Occupation 1797
  5.7 British protectorate 1815
  5.8 The Role of Zakinthos in the Greek war of indipendence 1821
  5.9 The annexation by greece 1864 up to the earthquake of 1953
  5.10 Earthquake of 1953 and it's effects
  5.11 From 1953 onwards and i will include the references that already exist.

6)Culture : The cultural production of Zakynthos and it's effect on Greece 7)Population : the population of zakinthos and it's religion

 7.1 The Jewish presence Zakynthos 
 7.2 The Catholic and protestant presence in Zakythos

8) Industy: a historical overview of it and it's nowadays sources of income 9) See also : all the rest in diffirent pages As for the rest i am not sure yet so i'll need your help. Sure thing is that the prominent people of zakinthos should be in a diffirent page with each analytical biography which i am willing to do. If you have any other suggestions please mention them. To finish my references will be mainly greek and also ancient greek and latin writers since there seems to be nothing really important either online nor published in english in my knowledge. Of course my access in english libraries is limited or nonexistant due to distance. But i am willing to present you any document i am sked of. Yliessian Yliessian (talk) 19:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong link

The link to French wiki article (left side of screen) leads to someone called 'Louis Dochez'. I don't know how to arrange this.

This has been rectified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.0.42 (talk) 14:04, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

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Promotional content

Recently, an editor has added what I consider to be content more appropriate for a travel guide instead of a neutral encyclopedia. This article has had problems with promotional content for years. I oppose inclusion of this recent content. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

There are countless articles on Wikipedia about different types of dances, food, festivals in places around the world. Why would it differ in the case of Zakynthos? refer to below for some examples. The Zakynthos entries do not meaningfully differ from these entries.

• Music of Sicily
• Music of Crete

Also, it is easy enough to find textual references to the events held on the island rather than rely on own experience.— Preceding unsigned comment added by EmmanuelTzannes (talk • contribs) 05:09, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Those are articles about the music of those other islands, not articles about the islands themselves. Certainly you can see the difference. Your edits taken as a whole seem intended to promote tourism, and that is contrary to Wikipedia's purposes. Such promotionalism should be deleted from all articles including this one. Also, will you please sign your talk page posts, by ending them with four tildes? Thank you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:03, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

'Those are articles about the music of those other islands, not articles about the islands themselves. Certainly you can see the difference.'

Wrong. The following Wikipedia entry on the island of Sicily, and not the Music of Sicily, has sections on Sicilian cuisine, Popular Culture (which includes festivals, music etc.) Please show me how this differs from the entries on Music, Dance, Cuisine, Festivals for the Zakynthos entry? Please be specific rather than making vague statements like, 'Your edits taken as a whole seem intended to promote tourism, and that is contrary to Wikipedia's purposes'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily — Preceding 3unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:2F68:2700:1166:25B9:91D1:E856 (talk) 21:14, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Please log in before editing. Sicily has a population of over five million people and Zakynthos has a population of less than 41,000 people, or less than 1%. Take a look at the section on Sicilian cuisine, which is world famous. Sicily has only four paragraphs on its cuisine, because we have sub articles Sicilian cuisine and Sicilian pizza that cover these topics in much greater depth. There are many detailed sub articles about Sicily, and the main article briefly summarizes those more detailed sub articles. That results in a main article that is readable about this island of five million people, instead of a bloated, overly detailed, poorly referenced and excessively long article about an island of 41,000 people, which is exactly what Zakynthos has become. Why do you reject the advice of highly experienced editors? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:49, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

• It's simple. Content needs to be well-referenced and to the point. Extensive argumentative sections on non-notable people (really, essays on local culture) are not OK. At over 300k, this article is ridiculously long. Drmies (talk) 14:55, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

No worries. I will remove all my additions to the Zakynthos wikipedia entry and go elsewhere. There is obviously a US-centric view of the world at play and histories which are perhaps important to other people are not valued. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmmanuelTzannes (talk • contribs) 21:01, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

• You are free to believe that, but it's complete nonsense. Drmies (talk) 22:34, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Rather than remove content that takes hours to write and research perhaps ask questions on the places and people that are being written. Clearly, you are not across the Greek-language sources.

No one other than you has mentioned or alluded to the United States in this conversation. Instead, we have been comparing an article about a large Italian island with an article about a smaller Greek island. There is plenty of room for separate, neutral, well-referenced articles about the history, cuisine, poetry and dance of Zakynthos. Instead, you choose to take your ball and go home, EmmanuelTzannes Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

No. Rather than the editors asking questions about certain content, which is often sourced in a language they do not understand, they just went ahead and deleted it. In that case, there is no point in discussing this further.

Nobody has criticized the use of Greek language sources in this conversation, EmmanuelTzannes, so that is an irrelevancy. Why can't you engage with the actual criticisms? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:53, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

For example, one of your editors deleted a whole page of notable people without having any idea who these people are (relying only on English language sources) and what contribution they have made to Greek literature, film, politics etc., They flippantly ignored the Greek language sources. How do you expect me to engage with someone like that?

Articles about places do not include multi sentence mini-biographies of people associated with those places, EmmanuelTzannes. They often include lists of such current or former residents, sometimes with a two or three word phrase describing these people. If these people are notable (as many of them surely are), then separate biographical articles should be written about those people. And, as I recall, some already had biographies here. The editor who properly removed this bloat from this particular article did do for very good reasons, and the fact that some of the sources were in Greek had absolutely nothing to do with it. Experienced editors all know that reliable sources in any language are acceptable, but the way you have been trying to structure this article is not acceptable. Why is it that you will not respond to the actual reasons that we are giving for opposing this content, and persist instead in making up reasons? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:36, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Your response does not make sense. I was going to write mini-biographies but there are only so many hours in the day. You are also accusing me of making things up, but he did delete content without asking any questions. Therefore, given you all seem to know the history of the island, I removed the text I wrote and you can go ahead and write a vague lightweight history that provides no information at all.

I said that you made up the fact that we are criticizing the article because we are Americans. You have zero evidence of that. I said you made up the fact that content was deleted because references are in Greek. You have zero evidence of that. Both of those assertions are demonstrably false, as both of us American editors have written, expanded and improved many articles about non-American topics worldwide, and neither of us object in any way to non-English sources.

You clearly have far better knowledge of Zakynthos than either of us,EmmanuelTzannes. On the other hand, we clearly have a much better understanding of how to write a good article about a geographical feature and populated place than you do. If you would accept constructive criticism and collaborate with your fellow editors, then this could become an outstanding article. Or not. The choice is yours. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Hold on, folks. I'm sad to see a content dispute ending up in a lot of quality material being removed, and a good-faith contributor leaving the project. I have this article on the watchlist, I've seen that Emmanuel adds too much of material to it, and that he needed guidance. However, there is no deadline, and I intended to approach it eventually. However, the solution to overlong article is to split it (for example, History of Zakynthos and Music of Zakynthos are both redlinks at the cmoment) and/or merge the contents to already existing articles, not to mercilessly prune it; yeah, now it stays in the article history, but it's not "live" contents anymore and is subject to rot. While you both are highly experienced editors and admins, the approach turned to be bitey; in particular, Cullen's accusations of promotionalism weren't cool, and I can understand Emmanuel's taking offense – many editors "promote" their favorite topics by extensively writing about them. Not that Emmanuel was amenable to criticism, either. I'd like to find a way out of this impasse. No such user (talk) 09:47, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Finally, someone talking some sense. Cullen and Drmies, if you can for one minute, tone down your arrogance, unprofessionalism and Anglo-American bias, maybe read what this gentleman above wrote. Given time, the Zakynthos article would have been further proofread and references tightened. However, you just decided to take it upon yourself to delete whole swathes of good material often from non-English sources. Unfortunately, this has not stopped. Doug Weller just deleted references to Zakynthos and Sagunto. If he bothered to read the sources, Polybius, Strabo and others he would discover there is a link. Just how strong that link is, is open to speculation somewhat. Regardless, the two towns just became Sister Cities because of this link. Two articles in Greek and Spanish:

http://www.sagunt.es/es-es/actualidad/Paginas/Zakynthos.aspx http://imerazante.gr/2017/09/25/160304

Again, this is an example of someone with limited knowledge of the sources deleting text without even asking questions.

The only way for the impasse to be solved is for the restitution of all the text that has been written and to be given time to finish the project.

Emmanuel Tzannes.

I think the edits of user Emmanuel Tzanes were very interesting and had placed also some good quality images. On the other hand some paragrafs were too long, maybe unecessary infos, sometimes making tired the reader I hope a concensus to be found cause it was a good offer Before these edits the article was too poorGreco22 (talk) 20:32, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Read above.

So, will I be able to reinstate my work to Wikipedia or should I go elsewhere? Still waiting for an answer?

EmmanuelTzannesEmmanuelTzannes (talk) 02:41, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

No, you don't have consensus to restore your edits. You've even ignored my suggestion below "As for the alleged founding of Saguntum by Zakynthians, instead of complaining why not add something to Saguntum and copy it here?" I provided you with a good source. Your edits simply don't meet our policies and guidelines. Get consensus by suggesting some text and working with other editors to bring it to an acceptable standard. Doug Weller talk 14:27, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

The editors just delete material of topics they know little about without asking questions of the writers. I have demonstrated several times that they are out of their league on the topic of Zakynthos because they are not across the Greek language sources. Inevitably, a bias, perhaps unintentional, is built into Wikipedia because of this.

Emmanuel TzannesEmmanuelTzannes (talk) 20:55, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

• Any conversation that starts with accusations of "arrogance, unprofessionalism and Anglo-American bias" is not going to go very far. Drmies (talk) 13:07, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Text I deleted

I see there's a complaint about the unsourced text I deleted. It was:

"According to some sources Saguntum in present-day Spain was founded by the Zakynthians as part of the broader Greek colonisation of the Mediterranean. Some sources claim this occurred 200 years before the Trojan War but this is doubtful/"

As I said in my edit summary, this isn't mentioned in Saguntum and I'm a strong believer that if there is a main article that any speculation such as this should be mentioned there first. Anything that says there are sources should mention them. And the bit about the Trojan War is anything but helpful to readers, as there are a number of controversies about it ranging from did it occur to if it did when. We call it part of Greek mythology, but the article referred to it as though there was no doubt it happened and when.

As for the alleged founding of Saguntum by Zakynthians, instead of complaining why not add something to Saguntum and copy it here? It took seconds to find an academic sour which says "Saguntum lay a little over a kilometre from the sea, on the site of the modern Spanish town which until 1877 was called Murviedro, though now it has been renamed Sagunto. It was said to have been founded by colonists from the island of Zakynthos, off the northwest coast of the Peloponnese, but this is probably no more than a guess based on the similarity of the names: its coins bore the name “Arse” or “Arseken” and this ma> have given rise to the even more improbable - though in Roman eyes useful - legend that some of its original inhabitants came from Ardea in Latium (Livy 21.7.2). In reality, it was probably a native settlement, though perhaps with some Greek admixture - it appears, in particular, to have had commercial relations with Marseille."[1] Emmanuel, if you feel strongly this alleged founding should be mentioned, by all means do, with a proper source making it clear that it's dubious. The text I deleted seemed to suggest it was likely. And you really need to stop insulting people. You were the one who added text claiming that Zakynthos took part in the Trojan War and was mentioned in the Catalog of Ships, but I see no evidence that you understand that the Trojan War is mythology with some unknown historical basis and that the Catalog of Ships is not what you seem to think it is. Doug Weller talk 14:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller, perhaps you should read a little more widely than your local library. To help you, I'll direct you to a book titled, The Trojan War: a Very Short Introduction written by Bronze Age expert, Eric H Cline. Eric H. Cline is Professor of Classics and Anthropology and chair of the Department of Classical and Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, as well as director of the Capitol Archaeological Institute at George Washington University.

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-trojan-war-a-very-short-introduction-9780199760275?cc=us&lang=en&

In this book, Cline concludes that the Trojan War, in its broadest sense is not a myth. This is a view shared by many academics. Of course, the war did not happen as detailed in Homer as he was a poet and storyteller, but there is sufficient textual and archaeological evidence to suggest there was a series of wars between the early Greek city states and kingdoms and Troy which provided the basis for Homer's Iliad and the Epic Cycle.

I hope this helps your understanding of the Trojan War and Bronze Age Greece.

Emmanuel TzannesEmmanuelTzannes (talk) 02:33, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Lol. I've corresponded with Cline about his books and now this one well. I've used his works as sources in a number of articles. Here's what that book actually says: "Troy. However, we have seen that there was no specific “Trojan War” that one can definitively point to, at least not as Homer has described it in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Instead, we have found several such Trojan wars and several cities at Troy, enough that one can conclude there is a historical kernel of truth—of some sort-underlying all the stories." If you don't like calling this conflation of stories mythological, ok, but the point is that your edits describe is as though there was a single war and we know more or less what time it took place, enough to date other events that took place after it as taking place 200 years later. You've ignored my point about the Catalog of ships. And you continue with your insults, ignoring WP:AGF. You should also red WP:OWN. Doug Weller talk 14:24, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Doug, unfortunately you misconstrue correcting your mistakes with insults which belies a lack of professionalism and backbone. As for the Trojan War, your above response just proves my point. Also, I never wrote it was a single war but just used the term Trojan War which according to people like Cline describes a series of conflicts.

Emmanuel TzannesEmmanuelTzannes (talk) 20:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

You mentioned it three times as though it was one war. "Hundreds of years after the Trojan War" and "Some sources claim this occurred 200 years before the Trojan War but this is doubtful. Zakynthos participated in the Trojan War and is listed in the Homeric Catalogue of Ships." Note the word "the". And you failure to note that the Catalog of Ships was almost certainly not written at the traditional time of the Trojan War. Oh, and saying I lack professionalism and backbone is an insult. Doug Weller talk 11:09, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

• Doug Weller, the editor again removed this chunk that I had edited down. I think this is the third time. If we ever needed proof of OWNership, here it is. Drmies (talk) 13:09, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Dougie, not sure if you have noticed but this is an article on Zakynthos, not the Trojan War. Therefore, contesting the nature of that war, or wars, and elements in Homer's Iliad is not central to the article.

Emmanuel TzannesEmmanuelTzannes (talk) 20:57, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Zakynthian literature

How can an article which purports to cover the literature of Zakynthos not mention Andrea Kalvos, Ugos Foscolos, Antonios Martelaos, Elizavet Martinengou, Antonios Matesis, Grigoris Xenopoulos, Dionysios Romas? All of which are key figures in Zakynthian and Greek letters throughout the 19th and 20th centuries.

Emmanuel TzannesEmmanuelTzannes (talk) 21:05, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Zakynthian painting

Zakynthos was a key link in the chain of the Westernising trend in modern Greek painting resulting in the Heptanese School of Painting. Key artists migrated to the island from Crete after its fall to the Ottoman Turks in 1669, which in turn taught locals to paint. There is a clear chain from Doxaras (father and son), Koutouzis, Kantounis, Tsokos, Kallivokas and Iatras. Many of their works are hung in the National Galley in Athens or the Museum of Post Byzantine Art in Zakynthos. Why is this not mentioned in this Zakynthos article?

Emmanuel TzannesEmmanuelTzannes (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Zakynthian theatre

One of the first recorded instances of modern Greek theatre occurred in Zakynthos after the Battle of Lepanto in 1571. Thereafter, the island produced one of the first playwrights of modern Greek theatre in Savoyas Rousmelis. After him followed the crucial figure of Dimitrios Gouzelis and his work, Hasis and then later Antonios Matesis and his work, The Vasilikos. Not only that, Zakynthos has had a continuous tradition of street theatre going back several centuries which has been discussed being recognised by UNESCO. Why isn't this information presented in this article?

Emmanuel TzannesEmmanuelTzannes (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

@EmmanuelTzannes: Great, you appear to know a lot about this. Can you please put this material - on other forms of literature and on painting as well as on theatre - into the article section so that it is more balanced and correct? With sources? I doubt anyone else is going to come along soon who is as able to do it as you, but it does need sources. I see Drmies cutting material you had added in this edit: the problem I see with that material is it was extremely long but had few sources. This article doesn't need a full characterization of every writer, playwright, and artist: just a brief summary, and for those with no articles, you may want to use the interlanguage link template to link to an article on Greek Wikipedia. But sources are vital. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:09, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

There were plenty of sources, both old and new Greek language (and English language) sources. However, Drmies took it upon himself to zealously delete material he knows little to nothing about. What you have now is a Zakynthos entry which is comical in the amount of information it does not provide.

EmmanuelTzannes120.152.183.95 (talk) 01:15, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Zakynthos history

Where is a section on the Venetian occupation of Zakynthos? The Zakynthian participation of the Battle of Lepanto? The Rebellion of the Popolari, a critical event Zakynthian and Greek history? Zakynthos and the Orlov Revolt? The burning of the Libro D'Oro? Zakynthians, the Friendly Society and 1821? The British occupation and the Radicals? If one was to read this entry with no knowledge of Zakynthos or the Ionian Islands they would come away thinking nothing has happened since Antiquity.

Emmanuel Tzannes120.152.183.95 (talk) 01:22, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

• Note The somewhat controversial history section has been moved to History of Zakynthos. Johnbod (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Commerce and Industry

I landed on this Zakynthos article because my father was born on the island about 90 years ago. This is a request for someone to add more information about commerce, professions and industry if anyone is familiar or has access to that type of information. How many people are involved in tourism? is any industry critical to the island? What are the primary professions of residents? Could it be considered a retirement island? Anything unusual, like how Crescent City, California has prison few people know about that employs almost 25% of the town? Thanks !! 96.39.163.157 (talk) 03:14, 10 December 2018 (UTC)