User talk:Mendel

Confused? For two days I was known as User:RichL.

Please leave your comments at the bottom, with a section header. I'll reply on your talk page.

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(Prehistory)

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. Here's some tips:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Angela. 03:36, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

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Thanks for the neat bookmarklet, very useful. Erik Zachte

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Hi Mendel. All edits from RichL have now been reattributed to you. Regards — Kate Turner | Talk 09:05, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)

Mancow

Thanks for your help with the Mancow article. The original Regan link was driving me nuts since it linked to a disambig page that had nothing to do with the book. --Viriditas 05:27, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

1. No problem. I saw it go by in recent changes and was as puzzled as you were as to why it was there, and then had a hunch :-) — mendel ☎ 20:25, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

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Folk etymology

"Regarding this change (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Folk_etymology&curid=11709&diff=0&oldid=0) -- I'm not sure a couple of those aren't folk etymologies. A misunderstanding of the root of "poll" in "poll tax" changed the meaning of the word in the United States just like a misunderstanding of "cater" in "catercorner" gave "kitty-corner". I agree that "welsh rabbit" doesn't belong but suspect that "welsh rarebit" then does. — mendel ☎ 00:18, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)"

Hmm, I thought it was folk etymology only when the word itself changes (a modification to the word or phrase), but if it also means that if the meaning of the word changes then I would include that in the definition and put back those examples. (from Special:Contributions/67.180.61.179)

fake etymology/minor edits

Re: your comment: I've been building pages up in small bits, which is an idiosyncratic way to work, but it's resulted in some rather complete and solid articles (see Fender Telecaster). I didn't realize about the preview function. That seems a better way to work.

Apropos fake etymology, there was one factual error (which I changed), and a shortage of verified statements to counter the false ones listed. It certainly does the piece no harm to say that each example is false. I see it as a stylistic decision, and one that I'll take a further look at, but ultimately one that depends on how the piece flows from top to bottom.

By coincidence, I did a quick stub for Clamato today. It somehow grew out of a rewrite for pork rind. -auto movil

Canadian Wikipedians

Hi! You should join the: Wikipedia:Canadian wikipedians' notice board Samaritan 09:48, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) (from somewhere in Ontario; via VfD)

Mendel, we tangle.

Linguists and laymen have different needs and thoughts here. Thanks for sparring, btw. First thing is, the 'Agincourt' ref is super-extra-false. Beyond that, the def. for 'folk etymology,' as distinct from 'fake' etc., is difficult. It's a technical linguistic term.

I'd defer to my linguist pals, but they're scarce since they got their doctorates and scattered, toward jobs. I have to speak as an ordinary gome (q.v.).

Ain't worth a fight, man. We're all looking out to make articles better. One gives, one takes.

Folk/Fake Etymology

I was surprised to find Clamato in your to-do list after I'd just written an entry. A total coincidence. I don't know what else is on your watchlist, but mine is full of musical equipment, aquatic animals, rude words, food, and religious topics. (Many of the pieces I've done are anonymous; I only fairly recently set up an account.)

I'm honestly stumped by that line in folk etymology. It was twisty to begin with, and anything I do to it seems to compound the problem.

Folk and fake etymologies are clearly distinct, but what's the salient difference? Auto movil

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With all due respect, Mendel, you're pushing your distinction between folk etymology and fake etymology. You seem to see fake etymology everywhere! Personally, I spent some twenty years studying linguistics and never heard a professor discuss fake etymology. You changed two references to folk etymology that I had introduced to fake etymology (in Georgia (country) and Cimmerians). I don't really care that much, because I'll admit fake etymology sounds more descriptive, although I consider it less scientific and less appropriate to those cases. And, by the way, why the heck does Popular etymology redirect to fake etymology when it is in fact a synonym of folk etymology? Pasquale 01:52, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

All right, I read your reply and, OK, I am convinced. I understand your point. But then, why say fake etymology and make such a big deal of it, as if it were some kind of linguistic phenomenon, when you could simply say "an incorrect etymology" or "a wrong etymology" or "an invented etymology" or "a phoney etymology"? And, by the way, I suspect the majority of etymologies given under List of country name etymologies, List of etymologies of country subdivision names, and other such Wikipedia articles, would fit those descriptions. Pasquale 18:40, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

See my answer to your latest reply on my talk page. Pasquale 01:17, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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So, Mendel, here's what. As far as Popular etymology is concerned, clearly a lot of people use this term in the sense of folk etymology rather than of fake etymology (see, for example, Anatolia where a clear case of folk etymology is referred to). What you could do is create a disambiguation page under Popular etymology, explaining that it can refer to either folk etymology or fake etymology, and adding brief explanations and links to both. Pasquale 00:23, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Clamato

I have to admit being one of those people who actually like Clamato, but it's a generational thing in that my parents used to buy it. Plus, it's such an unlikely, even archaic sort of product that it's hard not to have an ironic affection for it. One imagines a clam-shucking plant in the '30s that needed to find a use for their vats of excess clam liquid. Or maybe a clam truck and a tomato truck collided one day, and the drivers, after arguing to a standstill, sighed and broke out the juice glasses and celery sticks. If the truth is that someone devised it on purpose, simply thinking it would be a good idea, that's almost too weird to fathom.

Am checking online sources for a cogent linguistic definition of folk etymology. I'll check back if/when I find something useful. Auto movil 00:35, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

PGG

What, did I see you remove my PGG extract?? How unfroody! Thank god I'm on wikibreak. ;-) --[[User:Valmi|Valmi ✒]] 22:36, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Speculation

Hi Rich, I want to make some updates to Speculation and related articles, but a contribution of yours has got me stumped:

"Speculation is one of three market roles in western financial markets, distinct from hedging and arbitrage."

Do you have a source for that definition of exactly 3 "market roles"? I cannot find it outside of Wikipedia, and I see market roles as being basically "buyer" and "seller". Maybe it's there because of a merge of 3 sources, but I'd like to know if it was ever formalized as such in economic theory. Thanks for any info, and congrats for all your edits. Lawrence Lavigne 07:42, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

EFnet #perlhelp #irchelp

Hey, you're not mendel from #perlhelp and #irchelp, are you? User:Project2501a

Yeah, we've met a bunch of times. my nick is Dmi on EFnet :D I'm on #c and #unixhelp along with #perlhelp :D Project2501a 09:15, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ottawa Wikipedia Meetup

Hey, just a quick note to let you know there is an Ottawa Wikipedia Meetup coming up this Saturday @ 2pm. If you can make it, please drop by the Meetup website and RSVP. If you can't, join up anyway, so you can find out about future Ottawa Wikipedia Meetups! --Spinboy 20:51, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

New Wikiproject

Hi there, just a quick note to let you know that we've started a new wikiproject! WikiProject Ottawa aims to expand the amount of articles in Ottawa, and of the articles that are there, take them from stubs to something worthy of being a feature article. We hope you'll stop by and sign up! --Spinboy 03:46, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Massive revert of Telephone

Why oh why did you revert my substantial re-factor and edit of the Telephone article? Rick Boatright 22:05, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure! Or at least, I hadn't intended to. I was cleaning up some of User:207.88.78.2's linkspam and must have lost track of recentness. No harm intended. — mendel ☎ 22:22, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Somehow, you reverted it all the way back to the Revision as of 18:55, 29 March 2005. -- something like 80 revisions back!!! -- I un-reverted it. Rick Boatright 02:34, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks very much for fixing the image on The Bacon Brothers for me!! I appreciate it! Dismas 00:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Your input welcomed.

I note that you have added metric units to aviation articles. Please take a look at the Talk: Manual of Style: Proposed revision of 'Units' section to deal with a current problem that some editors in non-metric regions remove metric units.

We seem to spend a lot of time debating other issues and we still cannot agree. The proposal is now in the in the 10th version. There are only about 10 active participants and hardly any from metric regions. Please help us solve the problem of editors removing metric units.

Furthermore, you may also be interested in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Specifications survey that has just one day left. Thanks. Bobblewik 15:46, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Montreal street names

I just read the proposal, and I must say that I disagree with it completely. Rue should never be translated into English. Also, the policy that people are citing to use English place names at all is being misinterpreted to the extent that the policy states that the most common LOCAL name should be used, not just the English one. I lived in Montreal for a long time and never heard anyone say "Pine Avenue", it is always "Avenue des Pins". This is being edited from such an Anglo-centric perspective, that it's making me crazy. Páll ^{(Die pienk olifant)} 19:05, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

User Categorisation

You were listed on the Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Canada page as living in or being associated with Canada. As part of the Wikipedia:User categorisation project, these lists are being replaced with user categories. If you would like to add yourself to the category that is replacing the page, please visit Category:Canadian Wikipedians for instructions. Or just add the following to your user page:

[[Category:Canadian_Wikipedians|{{subst:PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Wikipedians in Ontario|{{subst:PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Wikipedians in Ottawa|{{subst:PAGENAME}}]]

- Korivak 19:38, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Problems with a-fadas & other diacritical marks

I've copied this message across from my own talk page, in case you aren't watching it: (SiGarb 12:07, 27 September 2005 (UTC))

Fadas on Bodhran

Hi! I've just undone and redone your changes to Bodhran because your edit changed all of the a-fadas (á) to cedilles (�). I'm not sure why that happens because MediaWiki supposedly handles non-Unicode browsers by displaying HTML entities. Between that and the previous comment I see here, though, it sounds like your browser and Wikipedia might be having compatibility problems. — mendel ☎ 00:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, mendel. This is weird! I didn't touch the diacritics in my editing of the Bodhran page. I may have had similar problems on Rood, when someone came in immediately and fixed diacritical marks after I'd been working on the page. I had added a paragraph at the bottom, without touching the rest of the page (which looked fine in my browser, apart from a couple of superscript 2s).

What often happens is that I will open a page and it looks OK (I'm using the Safari browser on an Apple Mac, as Explorer for Mac requires me to use hexadecimal codes) but after a "Show preview" or two (or more – it doesn't always happen straight away) it suddenly displays black diamonds with question marks in them for much of the previous editors' punctuation, especially diacriticals. Incidentally, the a-fada in your message looks fine to me, but the cedilla appears as a black diamond with a white question mark in it).

In the past when I cut and pasted from the "Insert" pane I still got the same black diamonds, so when I edit I use code (the "&" plus "eacute;" or whatever) as recommended on the Editing help page. But people have commented on this in the past (see Badagnani's comments, above), pointing out that it makes the editing more difficult for people who follow on. Recently it seems that the Insert characters will work for me after all ( À à È è Ì ì Ò ò Ù ù ). But I hadn't realised that just by visiting a page and doing a minor edit on it I would screw up every pre-existing accent on the page. Obviously I can't go through every page I edit and redo all the accents (even though cutting and pasting is easier than using code) because when the page is displaying OK for me I can't tell which bits might change, and once they turn into black diamonds I can't always remember (or work out) what they were before! This is a serious problem that Wikimedia needs to address, urgently. There should be a warning message for Mac users warning of this danger (though presumably a robot could be set up to correct such problems automatically).

Perhaps I'd better just bow out graciously and leave the editing (and reading!) of Wikipedia to the PC community. SiGarb 12:07, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[Continued on User:SiGarb]

There are Little Italies () and then there are Little Italies ,

Thank you for the fix! And for the kind message. All my best and wear your helmet · Katefan0^(scribble) 19:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and I have a fridge full of Sleeman's, thanks to the Canadian Embassy here in DC. It's pretty tasty. · Katefan0^(scribble) 19:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Otherkin

Thanks for the note. I've been scratching my head over what to do with this for a long time also. A couple months ago, I was involved in the talk page, trying to get people to use reputable sources. It may well turn out that there simply aren't any. I think it makes Wikipedia look ridiculous to base an article on the kind of sources used there. Today I re-read WP:V and finally decided to Afd it. Also thanks for your extremely helpful comment on the Afd, you may have explained my reasoning far better than I did. I really hope the discussion there focuses on verifiability instead of turning into a "save the Otherkin!" fest. Seems like an unfortunate number of people see deletion debates as being about the merits of the subject, rather than the merits of the article. Friday (talk) 15:32, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Suicide blonde

I have rewritten the article so that it refers to the INXS song. I would be grateful if you could have a look. Capitalistroadster 11:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Trillium

Hey Rich, I noticed the Trillium next to your user name on the suicide blonde vfd page. I think its awesome. Mind if I put it on my user page? I'm a U.S.-based Canadaphile and something about the Trillium reminds me of all the good times I've had in the Great Northern Dominion. Rock on Paul 14:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Helsinki and the Beach

Thanks. Still a newbie and was not sure how to handle that. —Gaff ^ταλκ 04:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

RD thanks

Thanks for your reply on the reference desk for my question on "diuretic". Who knew that the docs would have such an obvious antonym for it? PedanticallySpeaking 14:59, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Re:AfD meatpuppetry box

Nope, sorry, I just took it off this AfD as I was in a hurry. I don't know if there's a better standard template. — ceejayoz ^★ 06:24, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

{{AfdAnons}} looks wonderful, thanks! — ceejayoz ^★ 17:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

re: Protecting Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sopme

answered on my Talk page. Rossami (talk) 18:24, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Use of edit summaries

Greetings! As you may be aware, I frequently provide stats on various RfAs for those nominees with less than 2,000 edits. The tools I developed to help me generate those stats are also useful in general, and can quickly give me information on a user, such as edit summary usage. I took a look at all of your edits using these tools, and found that overall you use edit summaries 85% of the time. This is pretty good. But, over the last 500 edits this has dropped to 77%. In the last 100, it's back up to 89%. I hope you keep pushing it back up, and hopefully get it up over 90%. I suspect you would make good admin material. If you come up for nomination at some point in the future, strong use of edit summaries would help prevent oppose votes. See User:Durin/Admin_criteria_comments#Edit_summaries for more information. Thanks, --Durin 19:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

• Without. It's not enough to just have a mention of the section you're editing; that doesn't help reviewers to understand what it is you changed, and perhaps why. --Durin 21:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikithanks

A little token of thanks for mailing me the Grove article. Just thought I'd make it here as well as it gives me an excuse to post on your talk page, and to mention that I'm a fan (and hack player!) of Irish traditional music myself. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 18:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Mendel I'm helping you in Nintendo Virtual Boy article because I'm fighting against Doom127 POV Pushing here in Wikipedia. Regards, --Quackshot 16:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

(Replied on his talk page.) — mendel ☎ _ * _ 20:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Just to let you know he probably will not get your message since he was banned indefinitly Jedi6 22:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

New category

Based on your user page, this may be of interest to you: [[Category:Wikipedians who are pilots]]. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

WorldWideWeb

Sorry for the excessive delay in getting back to you, but I went on an extended wikibreak. I thought it should go in the infobox on WorldWideWeb, and the picture currently in the infobox (from 1993) could go elsewhere in the article. I put the request up because of the convention that articles about web browsers should have a screenshot of Wikipedia as rendered by that browser. The current picture illustrates WorldWideWeb pretty well, so I guess the question is whether, given your warnings, a screenshot of Wikipedia would be more or less useful. I'm tempted to say give it a try and see how it turns out, but I don't want you to waste your time since there seems to be a good chance it won't work out. Junkyardprince 02:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikimedia Canada

Hi there! I'd like to invite you to explore Wikimedia Canada, and create a list of people interested in forming a local chapter for our nation. A local chapter will help promote and improve the organization, within our great nation. We'd also like to encourage everyone to suggest projects for our national chapter to participate in. Hope to see you there!--DarkEvil 17:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Article for Deletion

Greetings. You may be interested in voting on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse (image free). Thanks. --Descendall 01:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

java tool box

Hi , Do you kniow how can I expend the edit windows java tool box to include more features ,such as the [he.wikipedia.org] has? --Procrastinating@^talk2me 16:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

if so please answer me in my own talk page. 11:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Template:AfdAnons

Hello,

There is a template which you created many moons ago which has caused some concern. You are hereby invited to join the discussion which is on-going regarding the language used by the template. --Folajimi 01:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Using xv with xscreensaver

Hello.

Saw your answer about the topic on the reference desk. My system runs on Ubuntu Edgy Eft. I've seen requests for this feature from several people in the Ubuntu forums. Yet, neither Gnome nor KDE provides a solution. KDE users say that the alternative solution which used to work on it doesn't any longer.

I've tried to set up a slideshow within xscreensaver myself. I've tried to use chbg as an xscreensaver client, but I can neither install it, nor get help (doc, net or author).

So, I'd like to try XV. It is not to be found in the Ubuntu repositories. This, I understand is due to security concerns, given that XV hasn't been updated for years.

How can I install it? I've found a source for it. I don't know, however, which packages on that page I should install.

Is what you gave on desk reference all that's needed to get the two to cooperate or should I be aware of / do anything else?

I'd like to get a slideshow within xscreensaver going and to publish a how-to in the Ubuntuforums.

Any help will be highly appreciated. Jacknjackn 21:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Not a ballot

Template:Not a ballot has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Cerejota 04:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Perl org-rt-index.png)

Thanks for uploading Image:Perl org-rt-index.png. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 20:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use Image:Virtual Boy kit.jpg‎

Replaceable fair use

Thanks for uploading Image:Virtual Boy kit.jpg‎. I noticed the description page specifies that the media is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed media could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this media is not replaceable, please:

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2. On the image discussion page, write the reason why this image is not replaceable at all.

Alternatively, you can also choose to replace the fair use media by finding freely licensed media of the same subject, requesting that the copyright holder release this (or similar) media under a free license, or by taking a picture of it yourself.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified how these images fully satisfy our fair use criteria. You can find a list of description pages you have edited by clicking on this link. Note that even if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, fair use media which could be replaced by free-licensed alternatives will be deleted 2 days after this notification (7 days if not used in an article), per our Fair Use policy. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 18:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

File:North-shore-tugboats.jpg needs authorship information

Dear uploader:

The media file you uploaded as File:North-shore-tugboats.jpg appears to be missing information as to its authorship (and or source), or if you did provide such information, it is confusing for others trying to make use of the image.

It would be appreciated if you would consider updating the file description page, to make the authorship of the media clearer.

Although some images may not need author information in obvious cases, (such where an applicable source is provided), authorship information aids users of the image, and helps ensure that appropriate credit is given (a requirement of some licenses).

• If you created this media yourself, please consider explicitly including your user name, for which: {{subst:usernameexpand|Mendel}} will produce an appropriate expansion,
  or use the {{own}} template.

• If this is an old image, for which the authorship is unknown or impossible to determine, please indicate this on the file description page.

If you have any questions please see Help:File page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Stowe01.jpg missing description details

Dear uploader: The media file you uploaded as:

• File:Stowe01.jpg

is missing a description and/or other details on its image description page. If possible, please add this information. This will help other editors make better use of the image, and it will be more informative to readers.

If the information is not provided, the image may eventually be proposed for deletion, a situation which is not desirable, and which can easily be avoided.

If you have any questions, please see Help:Image page. Thank you. Theo's Little Bot (error?) 10:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:17, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Mendel. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. Mdann52 (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Mendel. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. Mdann52 (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)