Talk:Ninjas in Pyjamas

Untitled

Isn't the correct spelling Ninjas in Pyjamas? --User:212.105.39.47 20:40, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

I've been to their website and you are correct. I have requested a move. --Habap 19:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You can boldly click the "Move" tab at the top of the article page. You don't have to wait for WP:RM.—Wahoofive (talk) 19:29, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! Moved. --Habap 20:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is the bds listed here the same one who was involved in the development of SoGamed precursor GeekBoys? --Habap 19:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Appears so - so I linked it. --Habap 19:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Deletion

This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 01:45, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Merge

No reason given. I think it's a foolish idea by someone on a campaign to eliminate articles on gaming personalities and groups. --Habap 14:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I see no reason to merge. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 00:43, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge

Why should an article about a gaming personality in his own right be merged with his team? It's like merging Beckham into the ManU article. Silly suggestion which goes against the standard wikipedia format.

The addition of both history and a few notable former players

There are a number of players that really should be mentioned in the list of former notable players. These are players that helped define what would become a great climate for Swedish CS playing.

The following is not intended to be put on the page at all, but I will add something sized down in due time, preferrably after response in this Talk-page.

The material can be reviewed through use of the following link: http://www.esportsea.com/index.php?s=esports&d=content&id=1819 - It details the rise of NiP, from birth to death, to ressurection.

A few players I feel should be mentioned:

Yohan "Hyb" Carlund - Held membership through the change from NiP to Eyeballers in 2000, then from Eyeballers to c9 in 2001, left for the clan MAFIA with MedioN when the latter was kicked from the clan and NiP subsequently broke up into the clans All* (Allstars) and MAFIA who became SoA.swe (Spirit of Amiga Sweden). Later returned to NiP when the clan was reunited in it's most famous and star-studded lineup ever: Potti, HeatoN, Hyb, XeqtR and MedioN.

Hyb should be mentioned because he has spent a considerable amount of time among the top players in the world in other teams too (Game OnLine, eSports United Sweden / team 9, etc).

Jörgen/Joergen "XeqtR" Johannessen - After having beaten NiP at events in his current team SoA (Spirit of Amiga), XeqtR joined the NiP team during their existance as clan 9 / team 9 in 2001 and stayed with the team until just before CPL Dallas in 2001, when trouble arose and he had decided to participate in the event with the swedish team GoL (Game OnLine) after being kicked from NiP or decided to leave. After that event was won by NiP XeqtR returned to NiP and was part of the famous lineup mentioned above: Potti, HeatoN, Hyb, XeqtR and MedioN.

XeqtR played for Schroet Kommando Scandinavia and subsequently Schroet Kommando Sweden, aswell as Game OnLine, Nordic Division (that became eSports United Sweden / team 9). XeqtR also played for eoLithic, a clan poised to become the best in the world, and beat his old team in SK.swe twice with them.

Erik "MedioN" Engström - Was a first generation Ninja in Pyjamas and after the brief leave for MAFIA / Spirit of Amiga Sweden he remained faithful to the Ninjas before effectively leaving the team when he announced that he was retiring from CS after CPL Dallas in 2001. MedioN was a ground pillar in the NiP team, having never been pushed aside to make room for anyone else. He helped create NiP and helped make it the world-famous team it became. He is an original Ninja and should be mentioned both in the "History..."-section aswell as the "Notable former players..."-section.

Michael "Ahl" Korduner - Ahl joined NiP when they found theirselves in need for a new player after kicking XeqtR just before CPL Dallas 2001. He had been a member of Game OnLine and was on his way up. He joined the team together with MAFIA cleanleader Vesslan. With NiP he won the ICE CPL qualifiers and together they earned their spot in the 2001 CPL Dallas event - The lineup was now Potti, HeatoN, Hyb, MedioN, Ahl and Vesslan. Together they made what could easily be described as NiP's biggest accomplishment ever; winning the 2001 CPL Dallas event, with X3, the best american team and thought to be the world's best team placing second and GameOnLine placing third.

Ahl was a member of the team throughout the majority of the Schroet Kommando era and has been a part of many of the other nordic powerhouses such as eSports United Sweden / team 9. He also made the mirrored transition from Schroet Kommando to Ninjas in Pyjamas, effectively being part of the most notable changes in NiP history.

Johan "Vesslan" Ryman - Former clanleader of MAFIA, Vesslan joined NiP together with Ahl for CPL Dallas in 2001, winning that event. Vesslan was later kicked after the return of XeqtR, but has been a part of Swedish CS longer than many others. He has, in his participation in teams such as eSports United Sweden / team 9 helped CS a great deal and is therefore notable.

SkogsRickard 14:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this is too much detail for Wikipedia. If there were a eSports-wiki, it would be useful there, but it's more than would be of interest to the casual encyclopedia reader. So, limiting it to a listing of their names in former players is about all that would make sense. --Habap 15:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

3rd-4th place on RaidCall EMS One Summer 2013 Finals, 2013 = Major achievement?

I fail to see how a 3rd or 4th place can be considered a major achievement in a tournament which isn't even regarded as 'major' in GO perspective. And less so when the team has won 16 of the 18 LAN tournaments they've participated in. Would a player from NiP see this as a "major achievement"? Please discuss. Imonoz (talk) 15:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

As I said, regardless of the high standard of a team or a player, what counts for the purpose of an encyclopedia is what they/he really achieved : facts, not "facts compared to his usual standards". NiP made a podium at the RaidCall EMS One Summer 2013 Finals. It's true that it's not as great as they were used to, but regardless, a podium is a podium. A place less than 3rd-4th shouldn't be mentioned of course, because there is no way the team would have made it to 3rd place. But for this event in particular, they are tied with fnatic for 3rd place, and therefore I think this fact needs to be mentioned.

Concerning "Major achievement",

the trouble is what we actually consider a major achievement. RaidCall EMS One Summer 2013 Finals had most of the best teams in the world participating, took place in LAN, had several qualifiers and a group-stage before that. The prize purse was great, about the same size as ESEA invite Season 13 finals. The number of teams was more than the usual standards, around 35 teams from the qualifiers to the final tree. All these points make it a major tournament in my opinion. If someone thinks otherwise, please feel free to explain why.

Additionally to that, what I actually consider a "Major Achievement" in the CS scene, is to make a podium, which means 1st, 2nd or 3rd, in any "big" tournament. Domestic events are also part of this, as long as most of the top teams in the country are attending, and that the number of teams participating is decent.

I'd also like to add that if we remove RaidCall EMS One Summer 2013 Finals, then we have to remove several other tournaments in that list (1st SteelSeries GO 2012, 1st THOR Open 2012, 1st NorthCon 2012, 1st Svecup Västerås, 2013, 1st Swedish Championship, 2013...etc). And that's only the obvious ones, because they are domestic events. If we remove EMS, depending on what the arguments are, we could also remove others... Arjofocolovi (talk) 17:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

A lot of your points are invalid, as when you mentions we should go after facts, what is a fact in this matter of what we're discussing and what are you possibly basing those facts on? To me it sounds like you speak of the whole Wikipedia with your "neutral-wiki" looks (and of course if there's an written fact we should use it, but in this case there aren't any). As both of us are discussing this matter really proves there's no facts in this case us Wikipedians can rely on, well except for one, what the team NiP actually consider a "major achievement" and I'm quite positive, NiP wouldn't consider this tournament one of those.

You consider "making a podium" a major achievement, well, that's nice but hardly any fact. A major achievement is obviously the top notch of what you can achieve in this regard, 3rd-4th place isn't one of those. The prize purse which-is the most important-was good, however not the best (and they didn't even score the first place), hence why it isn't even a major tournament. Just look at the 1.6 "major achievements" CPL "x4" now that was a major tournament in 1.6, in GO it is CPH Games and Dreamhack which are the majors. And I agree, more GO tournaments should be removed from the list, because every achievement can't possibly be major. But I would rather suggest the title "major achievements" is renamed under the GO category to something more fitting (as just simply LAN-tournaments), then I would agree on having this tournament listed as well. [And just a tip for you, set x4 "~" after your post so we can see the identity behind it] Imonoz (talk) 20:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

First, you consider my points as invalid, but do you have arguments ? What makes you think RaidCall EMS One Summer 2013 Finals is not a major tournament ? What makes you think a podium is not a major achievement ? How can you justify that a third place at an international, top level tournament is not worth mentioning ?

You're saying the prize purse is the most important ? For the record, RaidCall EMS One Summer Finals is 4th among the best prize money in CS:GO (tied with the Spring edition) It can hardly be better in terms of prize purse...

You're saying they didn't score the first place ? Most of the teams only DREAM about just PLAYING in the final, or even a semi-final !!!

Second, I'm not really sure what you're talking about when you say we have no fact to rely on. We all know that NiP ended up third at RaidCall EMS One Summer Finals. That's a fact. Whether they want it to figure on their Wikipedia page or not, it's another matter, but it's not up to them ! A wikipedia page is not a page made for advertising a team. It's made to provide informations, not filtered informations.

Finally, I have no problems with renaming the category "LAN achievements" or "LAN tournaments".Arjofocolovi (talk) 04:21, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

What makes me think RaidCall EMS One Summer 2013 isn't a major tournament? Well, let us take a look at hltv.org - RaidCall EMS One Summer 2013 and now Dreamhack Winter. That's why, because the most reliable site when it comes to CSGO E-sport, doesn't even mention it (but of course, you're more reliable because you're answering for the whole Wikipedia "neutralism" right?), here's the fact by the way. And to follow this up, how can 3rd-4th place be a major achievement when the tournament itself wasn't even major? hmm. The prize purse is of course the most important, that's what makes the teams attend in the first place.

Obviously you didn't understand, I agree. Clarification: there's no facts saying this is either a major achievement or not for the wikipedians to take advantage of (they won a 3rd-4th place, yes, that's a fact but hardly what we're discussing here right?) therefore, I would like to know WHY it's more accurate for individual wikipedians to judge whether this was major or not? Than to just ask the team what they consider a major achievement for them? Really hope that will make you understand. A wikipedia page is about providing information, yes, however, where it's supposed to be provided. Do you even understand what we're discussing here? Because the whole point is, a 3rd-4th place in this tournament doesn't fit in where the information is provided (under major achievements).

Please folks, get into this discussion and let us finish it. Imonoz (talk) 16:00, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't get your comparison on HLTV, maybe you took the wrong links. The two links are pointing to the news of the result, so I'm not sure why you're saying HLTV doesn't event mention it. If you consider HLTV as a reliable source (as I do), there are about 16 news linked to RaidCall EMS One Summer 2013, and those are the only ones linked, because several times I've came across news not linked to the event, whatever. And that's only for the finals. If we take the news for the qualifiers and the group-stage as well, it makes about 28 news all together. Sure, you'll say that DreamHack Winter has more news than that, and it's true, but since it's the biggest CS:GO tournament there ever was so far, it's understandable. You can't expect all big tournaments to be as big as this.

I never said I was more reliable than anyone, there is no need to make assumptions about my personality ^^.

Well, YOU are saying that the tournament is not a major, and that's what we're discussing here, so saying it's not a major yourself doesn't change anything to the debate. And for the prize purse part, I know it's important, but saying it's the most important is a long shot. If for example you host a 1 million dollar tournament, but only unknown teams are attending (whatever the reason, there could be another big event taking place at the same time as yours, for example). Should the experts of the scene consider your tournament a major anyway ? Just because there is a 1 million prize purse ? It's a whole, several criteria make a tournament a major : number of teams, difficulty (qualifiers or not, group-stage or not...), prize purse, international event or not (Scandinavian events such as the Thor Open for example have a good level most of the time, but not having other European teams to compete is just easier for them to win it), level and fame of the teams attending...etc. Sure, prize purse is important, but it's not only about that.

When you talk about asking NiP themselves about their wikipedia page, I'm starting to think that you're not after an encyclopedia work after all. Take the Roger Federer page for example. Do you think that if Roger Federer asked to remove his poor result at Wimbledon 2013 (his worst result since 2003 actually), Wikipedia would have to do so, because if he thinks it's better, it's more accurate ??? People concerned about a page are the worst possible people to bring out unbiased information on the topic. We need people not involved (I suppose you and me are not involved in NiP), we need unbiased sources (HLTV.org is fine by me, even if there are others that are also fine).

Yes I understand what we're discussing here, thank you very much for your concern about my IQ. As I'm starting to being a bit tired of your condescending tone, I'll just stop the debate here.

I think we have two solutions :

1. Ask HLTV.org or any unbiased source which tournaments they consider a major so far, after all they are the experts. If we have an official post to link, it's good enough (well, I think).

2. Rename the category "LAN achievements" or "LAN results".

I vote for the second solution.

Arjofocolovi (talk) 17:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm getting a bit tired of discussing otherwise endless discussions as well, that's when my tone shows sadly. I'll try to make this short. I posted those two links in regard of the information written there, my point was, in the information about Dreamhack they mention it was a major victory for NiP. They didn't mention any "major" about RaidCall EMS (as long as you don't find anywhere they mention it being major, it should not be regarded as one). The bigger prize purse the more and better teams will attend that's not a fact, just common sense. You didn't answer my question. Once again, who in your opinion should-with encyclopedia work-judge if this was major or not? It's not about being biased, it's about finding out if they consider this a "major achievement". Why don't you find anywhere it actually says "NiP won a major 3rd-4th place in RaidCall EMS" cause that would be the only accurate you would get from this.

Should I ask HLTV.org whether it was a major 3rd-4th place achievement or not!? You want it to stay man, you ask. My fact so far is that you haven't found anything saying it's major. I'll just wait a couple of days to see if someone else also wanna give his/her opinion about this before taking action. Imonoz (talk) 20:49, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll take that as apologies, I guess. Ok, so you're thinking that if a writer doesn't mention "major" while writing a news, it automatically doesn't make the tournament major ? Fair enough. Let's see this news then : http://www.hltv.org/news/10377-nip-win-copenhagen-games-2013. Let's take Copenhagen Games out as well ? Please, let's not be ridiculous, the writer won't mention it every time he's writing a news about an event, even if the event is one of the biggest there was so far.

To answer your question, I think the people most apt to judge if a tournament is a major or not, are people following and analyzing the scene as a job, as HLTV does, or people who are part of the scene, as the players are. The exception are the organizers, because they'll have obviously biased opinions towards their own tournament, and so on. If we ask the players which tournaments they consider a major in CS:GO, I'm pretty sure I would find the followings : ESEA finals, Dreamhack Winter, Dreamhack Summer, Copenhagen Games, EMS finals spring and summer, ESWC. That's the least of the least to me. Others are arguably acceptable, but those can't be overlooked. I've made a little survey on the HLTV forum, we'll see what comes up.

Something that might interests you, I found a notification on the top right side of HLTV.org (it changes every time you visit the site or refresh the page, so it might take you a while to get it), which says : "Did you know HLTV.org has galleries from most major events?". If you click the link, you get the list of all galleries from events considered as major, you'll find EMS Summer in it. And if this isn't enough, if you consider that a specialized website is sending his staff to the event for several days to get pictures of the venue, the players, the trophies, etc..., I don't think you could argue that they value the event "minor" ^^.

I've put together two screen-shots as proof, just in case you don't find it or don't have the time to look it up : http://i.imgur.com/25KymPl.png and http://i.imgur.com/JlO1eaS.png

I asked Tgwri1s, who's in charge of LAN Coverage and Statistics (I found his position to be the most likely to answer me straight away). Here is his answer :

http://i.imgur.com/9wleDV4.png

You can see the members of the staff here to check his identity (Lurppis is missing): http://www.hltv.org/?pageid=123&ref=dropdown

His answer makes me definitely think that we need to replace "Major achievements" by "LAN results". Even if EMS is indeed a major, too many people seem to confuse "what represents an achievement" with "what represents an achievement AS NIP". I'm starting to wonder if they'll ever get any more "achievement" if they only place third at all their next events xD.

After your answer, I decided to ask two more members of the staff, Lurppis and MIRAA. I'm waiting for them to respond.

Arjofocolovi (talk) 09:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

That's my point, exactly, if the word "major" isn't mentioned anywhere about a certain tournament, it shouldn't be considered one. I don't have time to look up every news article about CPH Games but I'm sure the word major comes in there somewhere. You answered the wrong question though, my question was who you think of us Wikipedians should judge whether this was a major achievement or not. I fully agree we should ask someone more reliable as HLTV.org. Does that gallery even mention those are only pictures from major tournament, doesn't look like it. Staffs are sent to most international events, doesn't make it major though and when did I say RaidCall ESL was minor? That "Major achievements" have been around for a while, you probably need to start a discussion about changing the title of it before taking action to avoid edit wars. "What represents an achievement?" Weren't we talking about major achievements here? I'm glad you got in touch with Tgwri1s though, his statement is more worth than any of us two in this regard. And he clearly states this wasn't any major achievement for NiP. So let's see what Lurppis and MIRAA says. Imonoz (talk) 16:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, MIRAA doesn't seem to answer, so I'll just post the answer from Lurppis : http://i.imgur.com/jIQZtV8.png?1 http://i.imgur.com/IsTuPQy.png?1

It's kind of sad that MIRAA doesn't answer because it could have settled the issue, whatever the outcome... Now we have two people from HLTV.org who have different views concerning the majors in CS:GO...

No wikipedian can "decide" whether it's a major or not by himself (well unless he's working alone on the project, because no one would be available to agree or disagree with him anyway ^^, so in this case it's up to him to respect Wikipedia guidelines as much as possible while building a page), that's why we're having this discussion. A wikipedian can provide an information as long as it's backed-up by a source both reliable and available for consultation for anyone (as it's mentioned in the Wikipedia guidelines). I think anyone who knows a bit of the CS scene would agree that HLTV.org is a reliable source, and that it's available for consultation for anyone, so for that part we're clear.

If EMS is not minor it's a major dude, there are the major tournaments, the minor tournaments, and then the tournaments which are not international anyway. Unless you have more categories in your mind ?

When I talk about changing the category "Major achievements", I'm not talking about me. This category was doing just fine until you came up to claim that there was a problem in it. So two things :

1. You want to remove EMS ? Fine, then you'll have to consider removing quite a lot of things as well in the list, as we know already. All this removal requires a proper justification (tip: "I think these are no major tournaments" won't do ^^).

2. You want to rename the category to a name more fitting ? Fine, but if you think a discussion page is necessary for that, YOU will open it and ask for a discussion yourself ^^.

Yeah, we were indeed talking about "MAJOR achievements", thanks for the reminder, do I have to specify it in every freaking sentence ? Jesus...

I really like how you mention what you like in Tgwri1s's answer, but not what you don't like. Yes, he indeed states EMS wasn't a major achievement for NiP, but he also states that it was INDEED a major tournament. As you said, his statement is worth more than any of ours in this regard.

"galleries from most major events" means that the galleries can have some major events missing in the list, but not in any case that the events in the list are not major ! Or maybe now you want a page where it's written "only major tournaments" instead ? Man I'm seriously getting annoyed by your lack of honesty. When there is a proof concerning something you disagree with, you assume it must be wrong (!), and when there is no proof concerning something you agree with you just assume it exists somewhere(!!). Furthermore, when you get cornered by facts, you just keep on pushing in another direction, in the hopes to still be right about the previous matter... I'll just stop here, I think I made enough efforts proving that EMS are considered a major event in CS:GO. I don't know if I'll continue helping with the NiP English page, but one thing is for sure, you need to stop being so stubborn and open your mind to the possibility that you might be wrong :). Apart from that, have a nice day. Arjofocolovi (talk) 03:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Why don't you do it yourself? I made this discussion so I could finally get the EMS removed, if you think the list should be fixed, go ahead.

2. "His answer makes me definitely think that we need to replace "Major achievements" by "LAN results" is what you said.

Once again you're confused.. The major tournament thing was brought up by us so we could settle the issue with EMS being a major achievement or not "the main discussion we're having", now that it's settled (by the reply you got from Tgwri1s) I don't have any use of knowing it was either a major tournament or not, Tgwri1s said - yes, lurppis said - no, since there no criteria for GO.

"galleries from most major events" And why in earth would that mean they wouldn't include some of the ones not being major (this have probably been up since the 1.6 era as well)? Just because they mention the word major here doesn't mean they would exclude the other ones. Oh, and here comes the personal attacks, way to go. What are you talking about? When have a ever disagreed with a proof here? I achieved what I wanted with this discussion, you didn't so you keep throwing shit out at me in anger, attacking me personally (luckily, there's not much weight to it for me to listen to). Proving EMS is considered a major tournament? Tgwri1s thought so and lurppis did not, is that your proof? You're contradicting yourself. Oh, I have no problems standing corrected, I just don't see where you ever corrected me on these matters? Imonoz (talk) 14:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Rivalries

The Virtus.PRO mentioned in this article is the CIS team HellRaisers and ESC Gaming is Virtus.PRO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.136.85 (talk) 23:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2015

i most edit they changed something that illigel. Fribergofficial (talk) 12:26, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 12:52, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2015

Dota 2 Sweden Adrian "Era" Kryeziu Sweden Linus "Limmp" Blomdin Sweden Jonas "jonassomfan" Lindholm Sweden Simon "Handsken" Haag Sweden Elias "Sealkid" Merta Yemen Bar "corteX" The Gever Nigeria Tzion "vuzwuzz" Shmailo Counter-Strike: Global Offensive Sweden Christopher "GeT_RiGhT" Alesund Sweden Patrik "f0rest" Lindberg Sweden Adam "friberg" Friberg Sweden Richard "Xizt" Landström Finland Aleksi "allu" אני תותך (talk) 12:37, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 12:53, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2015

At the end of a page, a user changed the name of "allu to "botallu" and added in a comment at the end under the active roster of the team. 76.179.112.167 (talk) 03:11, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done by Wyvol clpo13_(talk) 06:24, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

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