Talk:Bogatyr

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Old talk

• Are there only three bogatyrs?
• How did someone become a bogatyr?
• Is it a religious thing? -- Sy / ^(talk)
  • No, there are many more, the three on the picture work as a team in some folk tales
  • I believe it is in genes, someone should be born with this ability
  • In some tales the bogatyr emphasizes that his enemy is a pagan and he is a good Christian, but mostly seems to be non-religius. abakharev 13:33, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation

This was on the artilce. Ideally it will go at Bogatyr (disambiguation), but only when some of the red-linked artciles exist. This is a good resting place for now. --Commander Keane 16:00, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Moved to its own page; articles don't need to exist to have the dab page. Elf | Talk 22:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Translation or interpretation help?

now some good person could explain me: "Each bogatyr tends to be known for a certain character trait: Alyosha Popovich for his bravery, Dobrynya Nikitich for his courage" whats the drastic difference between bravery and courage? its a bad translation maybe? (Posted by ??)

Here's another one: "The word bogatyr was first mentioned in Russia time in Sernitskiy's book "; what is "in Russia time" supposed to be? Elf | Talk 22:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Polyanitsa

Polyanitsa redirects here, but the article doesn't explain why. I gather that a polyanitsa is sort of a female bogatyr, but that's about it — can someone elaborate in the article? --Quuxplusone (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

"Altaic word"

"Altaic" is a dubious term; this word was known in Rus before Mongol Invasion of XIII c. thus it is logical to persume it is turkic in origin. And another arguement is the word's history. Oldest mention is sinified Mao-Tun or Mao-Du, a name of a Hunnic king. Hunnic people are most commonly considered to be a turkic-speaking population of Mongolian plateu, which was later replaced by mongolian-speaking peoples (Xian-bei), who migrated to west only after the collapse of Hunnic state. The last arguements are (1) etymology, which can be rougly delivered from word "bek" (rich, noble) and "tur" (to stand, to be), and (2) Starotstin's etymology, which is turkic[1]. I've changed "Altaic" to "Turkic", I think it is less confusing. 89.176.108.21 (talk) 01:39, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Turkic, Mongolian and Tungusic languages are Altaic, at least according to the most accepted view. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 11:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Word

>The bogatyr (Russian: богатырь; Old East Slavic богатырь, Ukrainian: богатир; from baghatur, a historical Turco-Mongol honorific[1][2]) Bogatyr - bogatyi, bogatstvo, Bog (Russian God). It's not Turco-Mongol word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.194.154.209 (talk) 13:36, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. While the two words are of the same root, the respective articles are not about words, but about certain subjects. Characters of Russian folklore and Turco-Mongol tittles are definitely not the same subject.Beaumain (talk) 18:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose merger. Bogatyr might be borrowed from the Mongol title but it has a highly distinct meaning. Ogress _smash! 20:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Ethymology

Bog (slaw. for God), Tyr (germanic Wargod) - how about this very plausible Explanation? Also - in old paintings the bogatyri mostly (always?) had long blond beards - not much like turkish or hunnic people? Nowadays even the Kremlin admits, that the swedish vikings (Varagians) founded the Rus. Back in Sowjet times scientists went to Gulag for this statement... ^^I'd disagree with that. In fact, the USSR's textbooks stated that Swedish Vikings founded Rus, as well; no one was sent to the Gulag for that, no idea where you got that from; in fact, proclaiming that Slav's had always ruled themselves was a fighting statement, one you could get arrested for; remember, the Soviets had many cultures under one tyrannical government; the last thing they wanted was inter-ethnic conflict, and a statement like that above would be the one that put you in jail. The official position was that Varyagy (Varagians) were Swedish Vikings. The "Normanist" theory (as the theory that Ryurik was a Viking is often referred to) has many holes. It was founded in the 1700's by three German scholars working in Russia (I forget their names, but if someone could look it up, fill this in) came up with this theory. they pointed out that Ryurik sounds a lot like Erik or Roderick; however, by that same logic, Yorick from Hamlet could also be Swedish... but he is meant to be a Dane. As a side note, it is interesting that the scholars also claimed that many Slavic names had Norse orgins; Vladimir was supposedly from Voldemar; however, the meanings of the names were far apart. Vladimir is the combination of the verb Vladeyt (to rule) and the noun Mir (peace), forming Vladimir. In fact (don't take my word for this, look it up), Valdemar or Woldemar is a Germanic derivative of the Slavic Vladimir. Look it up.

In fact, Ryurik, often also pronounced as Roarik and sometimes as Rerik, was the old Slavic word for a falcon; only the eldest sons of the elders would be given this name, and this custom was generally most prevalent around the modern (and ancient) city of Rerik. The falcon survives on many Eastern European seals and coats-of-arms to this day, including the seal of Ukraine. Also, the scholars presented the argument that the Varyagy and Swedes were the same; to this, the counter were the writings of Nestor, which stated that these were separate peoples. In some Slavic languages, the suffix -yaga (yagy being the plural) survives, as in Russian; Rabotyaga (hard-worker), Delyaga (one who is busy), and several others. These words attach a verb to the suffix; Rabotait (to work) + yaga = Rabotyaga, and so on. The word Varyaga (the slavicized version of the word Varagian) comes from the word Variit (to boil). The Varyagy boiled sea water in Baltic and sold salt, which was an expensive product. It was a trade, not a nationality, but the majority of those involved in the trade of salt were in the north, all along the southern coast of the baltic. In fact, the name Pomerania has Slavic origins, from Po more (by the sea, or land along the sea). Some villages still carry Slavic names, such as Rerik. It was this city that Ryurik hailed from. Interestingly enough, oral histories in the area, written down several times throughout the centuries, all generally carried the same history of the city. The city was assaulted by Danes, and they were repeatedly thrown back by the defenders. Then, the Danes (Vikings) asked the leader of the defense, one Gotslav, to come out for peace talks. They killed him in front of the town, demoralizing the defenders, and the town was soon stormed. Meanwhile, Gotslav's three sons watched (some accounts state the two younger sons had there eyes covered by their mother), and were smuggled out of town. They were then sent to Varyagy to be raised in trade and war, in the southern Baltic. Meanwhile, the ruler of Kiev at the time  (I'm bad with names, I forgot the Germans, this guy; could somebody read up on this or look this up? I'd love the gaps in this to be filled in) had no heirs; he did, however a daughter; this was the wife of Gotslav (she has a name too, someone should look it up, I forgot). The ruler then called on Ryurik and his brothers Truvor and Sineus to rule; they not only ruled, but also conquered the surrounding territories. that is the real story.

The scholars also claimed that Rus was the name of Ryurik's home island, Rossland (a village on an island off the coast of modern Norway). However, this island, Holsnoy, is a volcanic island. It only rose up out of the ocean after the coming of Ryurik to Kiev. The name Rus comes from the old Slavic for blonde, "rusi," and the Varyagy in modern day Lithuania were called the "Rus" Varyagy. As for the connections to Constantinople; Viking long boats fared well with most European rivers, but the rivers of modern-day Russia and Ukraine had more rapids, and large rocks (some geological phenomenon) and the longboats were too brittle, and cracked. Archaeologists have been dredging up boats in many rivers in Russia. What they've found is that the boats on the bottoms of these rivers are made of different wood, and are slightly smaller. This wood is flexible, and I forgot what it's called. Business as usual. Serious, someone look this up. I hate having holes in my argument. Anyways, it's actually probable that the Viking longboats were based on the Slavic river boats. The final argument against the "Normanist" theory is DNA analysis. Researchers at Harvard analyzed DNA from Slavs and Swedes; The Slavic DNA is very similar to Swedish DNA; however, Slavic DNA is, according to analysis, more ancient (IDK how the f*** they figured that, but... they did. Turns out Slavs are the oldest modern European civilization.), and tests on the Ryurik dynasty (exhumations and modern descendants) proved they were Slavic.

^That is a long argument. But it is far more logical; why would the Slavs, an often warlike people, invite the Vikings to rule over them? Why would the Vikings invade this supposedly uncivilized and primitive people. According to the Normanist theory, Slavic culture and civilization was and is just based on ancient versions of Swedish Viking culture. However, the vast differences between ancient Viking and Slavic peoples are most often seen in culture.

One more argument for Normanism was that in graves of the Ryurik dynasty, much Nordic weaponry is found, to this day. However, that is silly logic; imagine archaeological digs in Africa 200 or so years from now; they'll find AK's, more AK's, Soviet Tanks; and the conclusion, according to Normanist logic, is that they were Russian, clearly. But, we clearly see that is not the case.

Bogatir is actually a combination of the noun Boag (God, also spelled Bog in Germanized and Latinized spellings), and the verb tiriyt (used to mean to collect or gather). The meaning of the name is therefore "Collecter or Gatherer of God." This makes far more sense, as the Slavic word Bogat (meaning rich) is literally defined as "Full of God." In Ancient (and some might argue modern) Slavic culture, being rich is not represented by material wealth, but by spiritual wealth, having God. Seen Solzhenitsyn's complaint that the West was too materialist for him. Wealth of spirit; there is a great emphasis on that in Russian Literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.54.17 (talk) 06:27, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Overall Edits

I'd like to make the following edits/expansions of the Bogatyr page: - expand more on the background of the bogatyr such as how they become bogatyrs, including why most of their enemies have human-like features and turkish names, and make edits on wording/phrasing - explore and expand on the origins behind the etymology of the word - research and find information on the "female bogatyr" - add more about bagatyr's influence- books, similar entities(Three Musketeers and Knights of the Round Table)- not directly influenced, just similar Here are the sources I'm using info from(it's not an exhaustive list): https://ls.pushkininstitute.ru/lsslovar/index.php?title=%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B%D1%80%D1%8C/C1-C2 https://catalog.tricolib.brynmawr.edu/find/Record/.b2440435 https://catalog.tricolib.brynmawr.edu/find/Record/.b1995321 https://catalog.tricolib.brynmawr.edu/find/Record/.b1603099 Najasmith (talk) 07:52, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Turkification of Proto-Slavic words

Proto-Slavic is an Indo-european language. The word "Bogatyr" is of Indo-european origin and has no roots in Turkic! In fact, it is the Turkic languages that adapted many Indo-european words. There is no evidence for this word to be of turkic origin and the creators who constantly add imaginary turkic orgin theories to wikipedia articles about the etymology of Slavic words seem to follow some type of agenda. There is not even a logical context to assume that the word "Bogatyr" is of turkic origin because Bogatyrs were Eastern Slavic heroes who faught against turkic and turco-mongolian invaders! The word Bogatyr is simply rooted in Sanskrit and derived from Proto-Slavic "Bog" for english "god"! 94.17.154.23 (talk) 05:57, 1 October 2023 (UTC)