Talk:Royce Gracie

Black Belt age

There is conflicting info in the Early Life section. It says he earned his black belt at 16 in the first paragraph, but 18 in the second. Can we figure out which is correct and correct the inaccurate one? (BTW I'm not really sure how to format these talk pages and whatnot, apologies if I'm doing it wrong) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esoteridactyl (talk • contribs) 09:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

New Picture

Does anyone have a picture of him that shows off his whole body? Since he is known for his fighting, its probably best if we use a picture that shows off what he looked like in the UFC instead of just his head. DurotarLord 02:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The Shamrock / Gracie "superbout" rematch

The original rules stated that there would be a 30 minute time limit with no overtime. It was decided after it appeared that there would not be a winner that the fighters would then be restood on the feet and have a 5 minute overtime round in hopes of having a winner. THE COMMENTATORS MADE MENTION OF THIS DURING THE FIGHT. Jim Brown, for example, said it was a good idea to have the change in the rules because he felt the fans were getting restless. This was very controversial because it was to Ken's advantage and Royce was very upset about it afterwards, and said so in numerous interviews. This was one of the reasons that Royce "bowed out" from the later UFC's because of this new rule of the referee being able to split up the fighters was being enforced, which he did not agree with. This needs to be added to the article.

What happened is that after UFC 5, the Gracie family sold the portion of the UFC they owned. Once they had sold their financial interest in the promotion, the family had no interest in providing fighters to it. 75.17.126.16 (talk) 03:36, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Slight change

Removed: "He got beat down by matt hughes at ufc 62 and lost by knockout."

The grammatical phrasing doesn't co-incide with the general phrasing about Royce Gracie. I have removed it, if there is evidence of Gracie losing then it needs to be supplied and correct english maintained. --Darktrial 23:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't care for the current phrasing of the Hughes-Gracie fight, it has a couple POV opinions tghat I think should be removed. I would suggest something less opinionated such as:

In round one Hughes took Gracie down and applied an armbar to Gracie; however Gracie did not submit. Hughes released the armbar, put Gracie on his stomach, straddled his back and began to deliver uncontested punches and elbows to Gracie's head. After the 17 successive strike to the head, referee "Big John" McCarthy stopped the match at 4:39 because Gracie was not adequately defending himself. In a later interview, Hughes claimed that he purposely let Gracie out of the arm lock because he knew that Royce Gracie would not submit and would rather allow his arm to break.

After the fight, Gracie announced that he would return to fight again "I've got a couple more in me. Let me go home and heal this up. I'll be back. I'll be back." Although emotionally calm and smiling after the fight, he was visibly upset and disappointed in a later locker room shot after the fight [4]. This match was notably Royce's first and only match with Zuffa, LLC.

The article mentions that Matt Hughes let go of Gracie while in the Arm Bar because he knew Gracie would let his arm break before tapping. Well, if you look at the Matt Hughes page on wiki you get this:

"Hughes has stated in past interviews, that he could not get enough leverage on Gracie's arm to break it"  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.191.148.3 (talk) 18:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC) 

No one has responded, so i'm revising the article to match Hughes statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.191.148.3 (talk) 12:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

---

bobby ologun------

he won a fight against boby ologun that should be reflected in his fight record. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.80.15 (talk) 07:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Hidehiko Inconsistency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidehiko_Yoshida has hidehiko beating royce once and drawing royce once

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royce_Gracie has drawing, but not the loss

I am not sure which one is the correct record, but I wanted to bring this to your attention anyway.

--!phil

Both can be considered the correct record. Due to the fact that Yoshida x Gracie I was not under the normal Pride rules, some do not consider it an MMA match. However, there have been a number of non-standard matches in Pride in the past, such as Silva x Filipovic, Sakaraba x Royce Gracie and others, and all are included in their records. The controversy is mentioned in the article. KingMob 17:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

POV problems

This and other articles on Gracies and Gracie Jiu Jitsu are extremely POV and full of loaded language. I am placing an NPOV tag on this and other articles until edits can be made. --Malathion 01:26, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Until you have proof of POV and loaded language, I am removing the tag. --Aika 21:05, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Didn't notice this before Malathion, and I agree, this has very bad instances of POV, returning the tag. --KingMob 18:40, Aug 14, 2005 (UTC)

Personally I don't see any POV problems here. I don't know if these fellows are familliar with the history of the UFC or not, but the Gracies really are the main source of the grappling we've come to expect from the sport today. I definetly wouldn't call this article biased, if you've watched the first few UFC tournaments you can see how no one really expected the style which Royce came at them with. Most of the fighters were purely stand up martial artists, at least until Royce cleaned up the competition and came away with the first two true mixed martial arts titles, placing his style at the pinnacle of the sport. The Gracie style of fighting revolutionized the sport, and definetly deserves regonition for its great contributions.

i just re-read the article and i also don't see the alleged POV problems. IMO the NPOV tag should be removed but i don't want to get into an edit war over it. i suggest those who are for keeping the NPOV tag quote specific instances. this way they can be addressed and the POV tag removed. (i suspect the NPOV tag was for a previous version of the article and that most if not all of the POV statements have been addressed) uri budnik 01:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it does have some issues with regard to 'tone', and to sourcing. (The two may also be linked to some degree.) We're told things like, the Gracies revolutioned martial arts, changed public perceptions, etc, but these aren't backed up by objective evidence this is indeed the case on the one hand, or on the other, put in the context of someone notable who asserts this is the case. Rather, we're told it's so in essayist style, in the manner of the "informed opinion" of the editor. (Which gives it a POV reading, even if it's in fact entirely true.) I'd also source and/or tone down the "explaining away" of his losses. Alai 03:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

If you don't see the POV problems, I don't know what to say other than what Alai has already said. The Explaining away of losses is just the most glaring of points. The mere fact that parts of this article read like Rorion's ads in Blackbelt during the early to mid 90's should be more than obvious. Maybe everyone needs to read the NPOV entry again, or maybe just this entry. The first paragraph is amazingly loaded and myopic, completely ignoring the fact that MMA was happening in Japan before the UFC. KingMob 16:18, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, when I saw the POV tag on top of this article I was expecting a lot o GRACIE HYPE all around it. But it did not show any signs of this on it´s current "incarnation". As a martial artist I really think (and also the majority or martial artists all around) that the Gracie´s changed the Martial Arts for good. Before those stunning victories on the UFC by Royce, there weren´t many fighters capable of defending properly against a grappler with good submission skills. After realizing this weakness in trainning, almost all martial artists started a cross-trainning of some sort. Quoting the article: "Royce Gracie (born December 12, 1966) is a professional Mixed Martial Arts fighter who revolutionized the martial arts world in the early 1990s with a string of quick victories over larger opponents in the UFC ... His results changed attitudes towards traditional martial arts and fueled a movement of fighters towards the grappling arts." - I don´t think its is POV. Unless you really want to deny the facts that happening a little after the first 3 UFCs... Loudenvier 12:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Also KingMob stated that the article completely ignores that MMA was happening in Japan before the UFC. I can argue that it also complely ignores that MMA was happening in Brazil for almost a centrury before going to the USA. It also ignores that MMA had happend in USA in the early 1900´s when Judo champion Yoshitsugu Yamashita went to USA to promote Judo. Citing the site Judo Info: ...President Theodore Roosevelt also invited him to teach at the Naval Academy. In an arranged fight there, Yamashita beat George Grant (6'3 230lb), an American wrestler. Grant was thrown with Tai-otoshi and Yoko-otoshi before being pinned. Because of this impressive victory Yamashita was awarded a 2 year contract to continue teaching at the Naval Academy. None of this affects the claim that it was the Gracies that brought back grappling and MMA to prominance, despite the fact that it was happening in Japan a few months before the UFC started. I think it would be POV to actually deny this. The Gracies are not everything they claim. They are much like a franchise, but they kept MMA alive for almost a century in Brazil and they were a key factor in the current MMA scene. Could anyone deny that it was the UFC that gave the momentum necessary for MMA current status and grappling return to vogue? (if there were no further comments I will remove the POV notice soon) Loudenvier 12:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The article looks good. The only thing I would consider changing is the opening paragraph. Obviously the Gracie family had an big impact in the shift towards the grappling arts in MMA. The dispute seems to be that they were the major or only reason the shift happened. I made some minor changes to the wording in the opening paragraph to hopefully alleviate the belief that this article is POV.Stones12 15:17, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Man, you did a very subtle but great job! I was going to make some edits to the article later to try to alleviate the POV impressions the article may provoke among Gracie "haters" (when I had the time), but the opening paragraph now seems perfect to me! Thanks for your wikicooperation. Regards Loudenvier 19:21, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I´ve removed the POV tag as I´ve previously stated I would do a few days ago. Me and a few other wikipedians take the time to search for POV content (read: Gracie HYPE) on the article and removed it when applicable. Hope the article is better than ever now. Loudenvier 02:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

"Keep in mind Gracie was 39 years old and recovering from surgery. Had they fought earlier in there careers Gracie would have dominated." Well, there's a grammar error there, but beyond that this seems to be less than non-biased. I say it should be striken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewikibert (talk • contribs) 13:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

should non-notable opponents have links to yet-to-be-written articles?

a recent edit to this article added links for many of royce's opponets who do not have articles on them. question: is it reasonable to expect that some of these more obscure fighters will ever have an article written about them? even a stub? for example, i remember watching UFC I on pay-per-view when the event first started more than 10 years ago; i had never heard of art jimmerson then or since. and the only references to him you can find online are to his one fight with royce. so, what i am presenting here is a wikipedia style/philosophy question. i know that sometimes links like these are added to encourage someone to write an article, to fill in the holes, but in cases where it is highly unlikely, does it make sense to leave the article like that? i think some of those links should be removed but i am looking for opinions from others. uri budnik 17:34, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I am planning on writing about the fighters that I can find enough information on, and the rest of somewhat notable stature will be left in 'red' to be written about.. but guys like Art Jimmerson, yeah, might as well remove that one. --Aika 19:46, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

i think you should include as much info as possible. Art Jimmerson would probably agree.

Who cares what Art Jimmerson would think? He's completely non-notable, he's a footnote. I can't imagine any article about him would survive a VFD. Tufflaw 04:01, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

The guy tapped out on a MOUNT, wore ONE boxing glove into the ring, looked like a hermit crab on crack, and was never heard from since. ;) --Aika 14:50, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

No, remove the links to non-notable opponents. Unless, of course there is some sort of comedic reason, such as a man wearing only one boxing glove and tapping out on a mount.

Where's the POV?

After reading this article, I'm wondering, where is the perceived POV?

I think it would have been more helpful to cite some examples of the POV, rather than simply saying "there's POV" and putting up a tag. Maybe someone who claims POV can give some examples?

Or, better yet, modify the article itself?

Personally, I'm inclined to remove the tag at some point. Leaving it up indefinitely, without changing the article, is kind of sloppy (in my humble opinion). Ex0pos 00:48, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I´ve removed the POV tag as I´ve previously stated I would do in the talk page a few days ago. Me and a few other wikipedians take the time to search for POV content (read: Gracie HYPE) on the article and removed it when applicable. Hope the article is better than ever now. By the way, I think this article really need a revamp, with stats from Royce´s fights and more biographical. I will be adding this in time. Regards to you all. Loudenvier 02:11, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, let me start: 'originator of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu' is a controversial statement to say the least, when everyone but Helio's side of the family all agree that Carlos was the one who founded BJJ. That's just the start. Any sort of flatly loaded statements about being an underdog or such subjective statements need to be tempered with qualifiers. The article's quality has improved since the tag was first put up, but it needs a lot more improvement until it's fit to not be disputed. Therefore I'm putting the tag back up. KingMob 16:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

KingMob I guess you aren´t from Brazil, right? There isn´t much dispute around the subject of who is the originator of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu here in Brazil. Following your reasoning, we could say that it was Mitsuyo Maeda the actual originator of Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu (I will use the term Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu and Gracie Jiu-jitsu as synonyms, although I´d prefer the first, because I really hate all the Gracie marketing machine). Maeda went to Brazil and, out of Gratitude, taught Carlos Gracie, son of Jorge Gracie the japanese martial art of JUDO. Maeda was a Kodokan judoka, so what he taught the Gracie was Judo. Early Judo was then much like BJJ now. This kind of Judo, with great emphasis in newaza is still going on in the Kosen Judo (university Judo) competitions. The fact that Maeda called it Jiu-Jitsu (jujutsu) is simply because Jiu-jitsu is not a martial art per se, but a generic japanese term depicting all japanese unarmed martial arts or martial arts that used small weapons. He could have taught the Gracies any school (ryu) of jiu-jitsu he mastered the techniques, but since he was a Kodokan Judoka, e.g., a practioner of the Kano´s Jujutsu Ryu, I´m guessing (with lot´s of historical evidence to support, and also the agreement of experts in BJJ history here in Brazil) that he must have taught Judo because he was a master of this art. So, by following again your reasoning, we could all say that the originator of BJJ was in fact Jigoro Kano, because he taught Maeda... But wait: Kano himself learned from others. So what makes him the founder of Judo (and of BJJ)? It was because he inovated. He brought things together, droped out others, etc. He changed the way japanese martial arts (jujutsu) were taught, and created a system, and and called it Judo. It was also recognized by other masters of the time, giving him authority. Maeda didn´t done that when he taught the Gracies. He simply passed on his knowledge (and probably a lot less than he actually knew). So I did not see him as the originator of BJJ. Carlos Gracie did not done that either. It was Helio that changed things. He was the one that devised a new "way of teaching" BJJ. He was the one that spread the term Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. He is recognized as the founder of GJJ, and since it is now more properly called BJJ, he is the originator of BJJ. I don´t think it´s POV to state that. I will also add to my arguing that before removing the NPOV I´ve consulted others by posting in this Talk page. I´ve received only positive feedback on removing the tag. After waiting for enough input I decided to remove the TAG in what I think was a common and democratic act. You´ve pointed a POV example that I deny as POV, and put back the NPOV tag before people could manifest. I´m posting this again, before remove the TAG (I don´t want to start a TAG war) because I think that if you could point more POV examples, that I agree as POV, perhaps I could get rid of them and remove the TAG more safely. By the way, the NPOV is meant to be used on articles that are blatantly POV, not articles that happens to have one or other hint of POV. And you guys, what do you think of this (again)? Regards. Loudenvier 01:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

The very statement 'You're not from Brazil, right?' speaks to what I am talking about. Helio was not the originator of Brazilian Jujitsu. According to many different sources, Carlos Gracie was the originator. He then taught it to Helio, among others. According to many not of the Rorion side of the family, the innovation that distinguishes BJJ from Pre-WWII Judo was made by Carlos, IE: Not using the GI and the additions of a spare few Wrestling techniques. Even the Emphasis on 'NHB' isn't far from Pre-WWII judo, since there were many challenge matches as the Creation of Judo was based around the Idea of challenge matches. So what Helio really added that distinguished it from the Art Maeda taught Carlos and the Art Carlos taught him was very minor since Maeda was a 'guard player' especially when fighting much larger wrestlers in Demostration and Challenge matches. The point is, Carlos Gracie had just as much (if not more) of a hand in the creation of BJJ as Helio.

Now, as far as the NPOV tag, there are still problems in this article, but they are now few and far between (as compared to when Marathlon put up the tag originally), other than the major dispute of who 'created' BJJ. So, lets sort out that and we can remove it. To claim that the origin is not in dispute and not include the fact that Carlos was the first to learn from Maeda would be negligent.KingMob 19:21, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I´ve changed the phrasing to say that Helio along with Carlos where the originators of BJJ. But I´ve got no evidence that Carlos was more important in developing the new "ryu" of jiu-jitsu called BJJ (GJJ sucks!). On the other hand I´ve got plenty of evidence that Helio was the main person behind BJJ success and development. The Gracie family members do not maitain a good relationship with each other. For example, it is known in Brazil that Carlson Gracie was the best Gracie fighter ever (even better than Rickson or Helio). He used to step onto the mat when Helio lost. I don´t know why he did not fought Kimura. He submited Waldemar Santana, who had previously beat Helio. Now Helio and Carlson are not in good terms. And Carlson acomplishments are dismissed by one side of the family. Why? Old newspapers, and many books about BJJ history point Helio as the head behing BJJ. I think the "other side of the family" (not Rorion´s side) could be just denying history and trying to come up with their own version of who is who in BJJ. But it could be as easly the other way around. So, as I agree with you now, NOT INCLUDING THE NAME OF CARLOS GRACIE AS A PIONEER AND ORIGINATOR OF BJJ IS REALLY A POV STATEMENT! Loudenvier 05:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC) (i´ve shout only to make clear I agree with you now :-)

KingMob, the only time I see the word underdog in the entire article is when describing the fight between Royce and Ken Shamrock. I remember watching this fight and everyone thought, including the announcers and analysts, that Royce was the underdog, so why is it POV 12 years later? I see no problem that statement, and it is even tempered with "looked to be the underdog".Stones12 20:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

If you want I can get the exact words the announcers said, but, by mind I recall it was something like this: "Here come the Gracies, very confident! Many years of experience on NHB fights... But seeing Shamrock entering the octagon I don´t think anyone doubts the outcome of this fight. The Gracie is good but, man! just take a look at Ken Shamrock..."... Without going POV the article could state that EVERYONE EXPECTED A MASSACRE! Only BJJ experts at that time would think otherwise. I think it´s POV to try to attenuate the sensation that was to see Royce Gracie on those earlier UFC. Tell me someone who believed that the fights would end just like that? (not couting on BJJ experts at the time) Loudenvier 03:51, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Such value judgements and subjective reasoning is always suspect. Remember what the Original UFC was all about: Selling GJJ, from the bracket creation to the 'lifetime achievement' award at the end of the event. Now, if you change the statement to say that the announcers made it out to be that Royce was the underdog, then that is acceptable. But if the underdog status is assigned by the writer of the article, that is nearing a NPOV violation. KingMob 19:21, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

KingMob, I can somewhat see your view on the underdog statement and certainly value judgements need to be scrutinized. However, the actual statement in the article is that Royce "appeared to be the underdog". It does not say he was the underdog, it states he appeared that way. This was certainly the case to the vast majority of the audience. What's more, it could have been a strategy used by the Gracie's to somewhat pysch out their opponents. Now that is certainly my POV, but to appear meek to a visibly bigger and arguably stronger opponent is a good tactic to use to cause the opponent to take you lightly, especially if that opponent has an effective ground game. Now, did the Gracie's employ such a technique? Your guess is as good as mine. I can try to come up with some better wording for that sentence, but I think it stands fine on its own. It lets the reader know that Gracie appeared to be the underdog at the start of the fight, and the reader can then infer that this was not the case by the rest of the passage.

KingMob two people have addressed you directly in this talk page so far. Please man do not take it personal. You were/are completely right to argue and to try to make what you think was the best for the article. That´s the meaning of the wikipedia. I don´t think this article was tagged with the NPOV for nothing. It surely must have deserved it. Only by adding this tag it was possible to correct it. I think it´s fine now. It´s because of people like you that this kind of things came to be corrected in the long run. And you also made me exercise my very poor english by trying to argue with you and sound at least a litle understandable. So thank you. Loudenvier 03:58, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

BJJ and Judo, where´s the real difference?

My opinion is that both arts are only taken apart because of the trainning regime. Judo 80% stand-up (tachi-waza) 20% ground work (ne-waza), BJJ 99% ne-waza, 1% tachi-waza (I´m not kidding about this). I´ve got some books of Judo that show so many sweeps from the guard, half-guard and open-guard that I can´t really think/accept that BJJ is anything different from Judo. By going practically newaza-only, it is a natural course that BJJers came up with lot´s of trick unknown in Judo to help them pass guards, subtim people, etc. But the main body of techniques are all the same. Don´t you agree? Loudenvier 05:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Well there seems to be a big difference in that Judo competitions will award victory for pinning an opponent on their back, where as in BJJ that is not considered. I would think this would greatly influance Judo techniques and style. I have rolled (newaza-ed?) with a Judo guy, and he frequently would "turtle" or give up his back, where as this is a big no-no to a BJJer.

Actually there isn´t that much difference. You´ve rolled with poorly trainned newaza judoka. Try rolling with Flavio Canto from Brazil. He can submit many, many top BJJers black belts (i´ve witnessed this more than once). My opinion is that the actual difference is only trainning regime. Loudenvier 03:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Lou, I see what you are mean, but as you said, there is a huge difference in focus (ground vs. stand-up), and a resulting difference in developing 'tricks' specific to that focus. The end result being, there is a difference. --CasualFighter 21:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Royler vs. Sakuraba, can the truth be unveiled?

The article reads this: Others countered that Royler suffered a broken arm and several torn muscles stemming from the submission, validating the Sakuraba victory. People that tell this do not saw the fight and do not know Royler. If Royler arm was broken he could not move/use it as he did just after Sakuraba released the lock. And also it must be acknowledge that Royler is the most flexible of the Gracies. He is really very very flexible. It seems almost impossible to submit him with Kimura (Ude garami) as Sakuraba did. He is able to grab his left ear with his right hand passing it BEHIND his back (in a way like the Kimura lock). In other words it is almost impossible to bring his arm on his back (as in Ude Garami) far enough to stemm his muscles or broke his arm, and even more difficult if it is done by the angle that Sakuraba was doing it. I think we should at least say that there were no evidence for these people claims that Royler had his arm broken on the article text. Loudenvier 16:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I've only heard rumors of that situation that it was broken, but no real evidence. However, just because you broke your arm, doesn't mean you can't use it. Forest Griffin had his arm broken in a fight in Brazil and continued fighting without much trouble. However, real evidence that Royler can bend his arm that far back without trouble is similarly as anecdotal. I think bringing up this fight in detail as such in Royce's Wiki posting is pretty much unnecessary. In many ways, that 'controversy' was solved when Sakuraba mercilessly broke Renzo's arm with the same hold. KingMob 17:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Renzo is not even near as flexible as Royler... But I really think this discussion should be done in Royler´s wiki article (if there is one...) :-) I (re)read the article, I think it´s fine as it stands. It do not support any side of the story, my first impression was wrong. But I have footage of many Royler´s BJJ fights: he used to let people go for the Ude Garami (Kimura) or Juji Gatame (cross arm-lock) when he was in a disadvantageous situation just to let his opponent relax thinking he would submit him so he could revert the situation. In the case of Juji Gatame he would escape rotating over the trapped shoulder, and in the case of the Kimura, he would simply let the opponet try and try again to submit him and them he would revert the situation when the opponent loose his balance in frustration Loudenvier 20:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I did not see the fight, nor do I know much about it, save for what was printed in this article. I wondered if this entire passage was applicable here, just like you,Loudenvier. What I concluded was that it enhanced the flow of the article and informed the reader of some of the possible reasons for Royce entering other tournaments. I tried to take out as much of the POV as possible and still keep the article in tact. There was the belief by some that the fight was stopped prematurely, which is stated in the article. Someone took the time to add the belief that the victory was valid. I thought it was balanced to include both arguments. However, my bet is that there is no documentation of Royler's arm being broken, so that statement could certainly be changed to say that there is no medical proof to back up the broken claim. Since my knowledge is limited on this subject, I will yield to the consensus on this one and will help with the phrasing and grammarStones12 22:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I just saw the fight on DVD and at the end when the kimura is being put on Royler he looks to be in definite agony. He looks like hes either screaming or yelling as Saka continues to twist his arm. He doesn't try anything to escape from it and just lies there in pain as his arm is being twisted further until the ref stops the fight. I highly doubt he was flexible enough to withstand the submission considering the pain he appeared to be in. In addition, after he got up, his arm is in a kinda of in an awkward position and as he protests, he continues to favor the arm. From the looks of it, I would say his arm was injured, not sure if he tore muscles or broke it or both, but he definitely seemed injured.

I saw the fight and it is clear to me that arm wasn't broken or heavily injured. Probably it suffered small injuries due to extension. It is also clear to me that Sakuraba could break Royler's arm from that position without much difficulty.89.218.91.69 (talk) 03:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

INCOMPLETE MMA RECORDS DATA

I´ve seen a fight in K-1 between Royce Gracie and Genki Sudo that the article dont even mention. Actually , it was a loss for Gracie by TKO . He was beaten in the ground by punches. More missing data is also possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.150.135.149 (talk • contribs)

You sure you didn't see Genki Sudo vs. Royler?? Those two did indeed fight in K1. SubSeven 17:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Win/Loss Record

Okay, I figure it's time to start the discussion about Royce x Yoshida I. There is simply a lot of misinformation about the nature of this match. According to many who saw the fight after the fact, this match was simply a grappling match. Simply watching the fight reveals that it was an MMA match, It was not a grappling match. Grappling matches by their very definition do not include striking, and that match allowed striking during standup, with no punches to the head allowed and no striking on the ground. These rules are not too far from the rules which Pancrase held legit MMA matches for years, or the rules Rings KOK or ZST operated under. Despite the controversy of the match, it was a MMA match in which Royce lost by TKO/Ref stoppage. The excuse of mma sites not including it in their records, or Pride and UFC not including it in their records are far from completely unbiased sources, for the UFC has Royce's record at 13-2-2, when Royce has 3 draws (Shamrock, Yoshida, Tokoro). Pride has him at 12-2-2, which is similarly inaccurate. Also fight lists such as Sherdog have a lot of matches they don't cover, and since they list Pancrase matches (Original rules) there is no reason not to list that one. KingMob 00:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

There´s one reason: all you can use on wikipedia must be reliably externally sourced. You can´t put what you think is right just because you discovered it (if we were in the 1910's Einsten himself wouldn't be allowed to post his special relativity theory). Even if it is true, it has no place in wikipedia, because it would be original research. On the other hand, if you provide a link to a reliable source then you should updade the article. In the case of the MMA stats, if it is controversial, then the most accepted one should be used, and the article should have a section covering the controversy. Regards (oh, I almost forget, I think you're right on this issue...) Loudenvier 01:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I personally believe you have to go with what the ruling of what the judges was as far as a fight's results. Sure, in a fight Like Olivera x Gholar, Olivera winning was a complete robbery, but once you open a fight's judging up to flat reinterpretation, you lose objectivity. So just mentioning the controversy is enough. With that being said, I will get the supporting information to the rules of the first fight. If striking was allowed at all, we should consider this an MMA fight, correct? KingMob 19:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Proof the match being a MMA match: http://www.bjj.org/tournaments/nhb-past.html under: Pride 21.5: Shockwave. It reads limited strikes, hence not a grappling match. If no one else can produce direct evidence against this, I will be changing the record to read correctly with the TKO lost to Yoshida. KingMob 13:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Additional Proof (For those who can read Japanese) http://www.boutreview.com/data/news/1030640107.html KingMob 13:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So in other words, you have no source which recognizes the match to be on Royce's MMA record. SubSeven 19:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, as I've said above, there are no sources that are reliable in the MMA community. Pride mistates his record, the UFC mistates his record and Sherdog is both incomplete and far from objective. All one can base his record on is official recorded MMA matches and if Pancrase, Rings King Of Kings and ZST are MMA, then that match was an MMA match. I've provided externally sourced material about the nature of the match. It was not a grappling match and it was not any sort of striking match. It combined elements of both grappling and striking, which is the definition of MMA competitions. KingMob 13:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be simpler to provide both points of view. That's the way to be NPOV: to provide all POVs that have some weight. The article must let to the reader the decision of whether this was a MMA fight or not. There can be multiple record tables as per sources. Try not to tell the "truth" to ther reader, let the reader find his truths by reading the article and it's cited sources. Loudenvier 14:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

While I somewhat disagree since this match is a MMA match, by the very definition of MMA on this Wiki. However, for the sake of acknowledging the controversy, we should provide both points of view. It's a good compromise. KingMob 20:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

When did PRIDE misstate his record? And you just saying Sherdog is "incomplete and far from objective" doesn't make it so. They are used as a source all the time on WIkipedia. SubSeven 19:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, read the above post. 'Pride has him at 12-2-2, which is similarly inaccurate.' Pride's site is omitting matches as well, so in that respect, it is not accurate. Reverting the entry. KingMob 05:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

PRIDE does not have him at 12-2-2. SubSeven 07:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/index.php?mainpage=fighters&fID=74 12-2-2. KingMob 12:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. At least now I know where you are getting that 12-2-2. That is the English arm of their web site, and I don't think that page has been updated for awhile. (Note the lack of Royce's 2003 rematch with Yoshida). That's the reason for the 12-2-2 record. Compare with Royce's profile from the Japanese side of their site. [1]. This one DOES have the match with Yoshida from Shockwave 2003 (the one that was a draw), meaning the page WAS updated post-2003, but the jacket match with Yoshida from Shockwave 2002 is still not there. You can see the same thing in Yoshida's profile [2], who has had many matches in that time frame but the Shockwave 2002 match is also not on his record. SubSeven 17:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, that japanese site does not have Royce's entire record, where is his entire record on their site? The UFC is similarly missing matches from the record. What is the reason for such? I think it's pretty easy to understand. Additionally, you are not compromising on this point, while I was presenting both view points. KingMob 20:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not meant to be his comprehensive record. It is his record in PRIDE, obviously. All his PRIDE fights are there. I don't really know what you mean by presenting both viewpoints. Either the 2002 fight belongs in his MMA record or it doesn't. I don't see how a "compromise" would be to include it in his record! I don't see any problem with the article in its current state. The 2002 fight gets a detailed write-up in the article, but is not included in his record which is consistent with PRIDE (who sanctioned the fight!!) as well as every major MMA resource. SubSeven 22:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If you can't understand the view point that the match was not a solely a grappling match, not solely a striking match and not an amatuer MMA match, then what was it? It was a profession Mixed Martial Arts match that did have strange rules, but not much stranger than the first Cro-Cop x Silva match, or the Rings KOK events, or ZST matches. Additionally, I've listed my sources which detail the rules of this MMA match. Your refusal to include said match is showing your lack of NPOV. KingMob 21:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I like how a guy who does virtually nothing on Wikipedia but troll the Royce Gracie page is saying I have the NPOV problem. Cute. Anyway, you guys are kind of missing the point here. Just the fact that there happened to be a fight that occurred, and there was some limited striking allowed, doesn't mean it should necessarily be included in a fighter's official record. Royce has probably had countless fights in Brazilian dojos that would technically qualify as MMA matches. Would you put those on his record, no, of course not. Why, because they were not sanctioned by any kind of legitimate MMA organization. In this case, while the match with Yoshida did indeed take place on a PRIDE card (more accurately, a PRIDE and K1 tandem event), clearly PRIDE does not recognize this match as a canon PRIDE MMA match as they do not put it on either Royce's or Yoshida's record, meaning they consider it to be an exhibition match or something along those lines. Considering that PRIDE omits the fight, and it was a PRIDE event, I don't know how you could make an argument for inclusion. SubSeven 17:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Your hostility and tone speaks enough. I post quite a bit on the wiki, and not just this one. But hey, you can believe what you will. This conversation is over. KingMob 01:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

im glad youve added the 'royce vs hidehiko' fight, or else id take it personal, this matches rules were a little different from PRIDE's normal matches, but if you dont count this fight than we rather NOT count ANY of his UFC fights other than "hughes vs gracie", because-

• matches took place in a cage (and still do)
• there were NO time limits
• there were no judges
• the referees were stupid
• they did not wear gloves or paddings
• the fights were not governed by the government state athletic commisions
• the fight were non governed and unauthorized and should not really be counted as professional MMA matches.
• there were less rules than what exists now in the U.S.
• gi's and pants are illigel in MMA matches in the U.S.
• grappling is gay
• etc, etc, etc.......

Agreed. KingMob 01:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

i think there is some sorta Propaganda going on or some sorta evil Scheme by the crazy UFC and Gracie fans here in wikipedia, who are trying to make royce look too good, and are trying to slightly remove some of his negatives!!! --Too Cool 03:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, agreed. The match was controversial, but was a MMA match sponsored by Pride. KingMob 04:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay here are two suggestions: 1) We put what UFC says, since the UFC is the leading MMA organization in the world. or 2) We create some way to show the different records as shown by the MMA authorities (Sherdog, UFC and Pride). There are too many people with too many biases on here, both Pro-Gracie and Anti-Gracie alike. mpa 9:40 EST July 25, 2007

Billy the Judd

In the Gracie Challenge section, there's a direct quote from Gracie that the kickboxer in question was "Bully the Judd". I just realized he meant Benny "The Jet" Urquidez and it seems the interviewer mistook it because of Gracie's accent. According to Clyde Gentry, it was the proposed challenge match with Urquidez that the 100,000 Gracie Challenge myth got started. I'll put up a cite next time I get a hold of the book. hateless 18:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

This article or section does not cite its references or sources

its tagged this up top of the article. But I don't see any citation needed links by any of the statements? Can the tag at the top be removed if the person who put it there can't show which statments need citation? Its like saying "fix it, but I won't tell you what's broke if anything".--Xiahou 01:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You're perfectly right... I think this tag could only be used if there is a lot (not only one or two) citation needed tags on the body of the article or section. On the other hand, the one who had put it there could have just the feel that a few citations would make the article to be taken more seriously, but he himself did not know the exact places to put the citation tags... Perhaps we that know a litle more of Royce's bio could read the article and put citation tags whenever something feels or reads controversal... Regards Loudenvier 14:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to find references or sources for MMA guys.24.5.132.192 04:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

No contest against Harold Howard?

Royce's corner threw in the towel; Sherdog has it as a loss. I'll change it to loss. Thedoorhinge 01:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Someone changed it back to a no contest without even discussing it here, so obviously I changed it again. If they're going to keep changing it with no discussion, I'm not going to be drawn into an infantile battle over it.Thedoorhinge 03:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If the fight took place in the UFC, shouldn't you use what UFC stated? It only makes since. It seems alot of people on here are trying to use their own biases in place of clear sources. mpa 9:38 EST July 25, 2007

It counts as a loss, Fujita's corner did the same thing in Pride against Mark Coleman and it was a loss on his record. No question about it.Colemangracie 23:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Update I edited the article hereto remove the Howard fight completely. With any article on a living person we have to make sure that our prose and our stats closely match what the reliable sources say about the person. Sherdog is certainly a reliable source for MMA statistics. They don't list is as a loss or even a fight for Royce[3], and they don't list it at all much less a win for Howard[4] so I have treated it in this article as the reliable sources treat it. This is likely to be debated. Comments?--Adam in MO Talk 19:58, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

So... it just didn't happen? He showed up, threw in the towel, but it just doesn't count? Then why does Wikipedia's page on UFC 3 say "Harold Howard vs. Royce Gracie- Howard receives a bye due to Gracie throwing in the towel before the match started."? If Sherdog says it's imaginary, then they are wrong.Thedoorhinge (talk) 04:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

In order to contradict a generally reliable source like Sherdog, we need another reliable source and not personal analysis. I do recall the "bout" against Howard previously being recorded as a loss, but I don't know what's happened to it since. I haven't found any evidence that it's a "no contest", so the entry in the record table should either be removed according to Sherdog, or changed to a loss according to perhaps this. —LOL ^T/_C 03:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, how about the UFC as a reliable source? The UFC's website has a profile on Royce Gracie, in which they list him losing to Harold Howard by KO/TKO.

References

The win allowed Howard to advance to the final of the UFC 3 tournament. I should also mention that up until the end of 2010, Sherdog did also list the Howard fight as a loss on Royce's record.

References

I don't know why they stopped listing it, the fight results were never even challenged, much less overturned. I think it should be listed in Royce's fight record. --FrancisC (talk) 11:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

It should be either Loss or removed completely. It was previously Loss on Sherdog and that way it is generally regarded. Dunno what happened to Sherdog and why it was removed. But I would still say we should go by Sherdog (the accepted source for MMA Records) and have it removed from the record for the sake of verifiability. --Tuoppi gm (talk) 09:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Why on earth should it be removed completely? It happened. Why else did Howard go to the finals? If it never happened, Gracie should have moved on as the more experienced fighter. Come on, Royce fanboys. It happened. He lost. His corner threw in the towel. Do you think they thought they saw a shivering, towel-less swimmer in the ring? Keeping this little corner of the internet ignorant of reality isn't helping anyone. Thedoorhinge (talk) 11:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

As of July 21, 2015, the UFC Website does not list the fight between Royce Gracie and Harold Howard. http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Royce-Gracie - The UFC is the sanctioning body for the event not Sherdog. If the UFC does not list the fight, then it never happened - which it didn't. A No Contest or an explanation is warranted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.41 (talk) 18:53, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Under the rules of the UFC, if a fighter enters the ring and throws in the towel, that is a loss. The UFC declining to list the fight does not mean the fight did not happen. The fight obviously did happen at the event. The visual evidence overrides any unexplained decision by the company not to list the fight. If the UFC wants to provide an explaination of why under their rules at the time, there was no fight, that would be acceptable. But there has never been such an explaination.75.17.126.16 (talk) 03:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Biography

Hi all, it might be worth adding this about Royce and Rorion

"Modern Army Combatives began in the mid-1990s when the elite battalions of the 75th Ranger Regiment, specifically the 2nd Ranger Battalion, hired Gracie family instructors Royce and Rorion to instruct troops in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

The Rangers absorbed the teachings and became fanatic in their ground fighting, holding Battalion tournaments in which the victors were sent to study at the Gracie Academy in Torrance. The Rangers then began to modify the jiu-jitsu techniques for combat use."

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles.asp?n_id=3595

I'm fairly sure (but not positive) that Royce lived in Alaska during part of that time period.

LetterRip 16:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Fight Record: "Exhausted during previous match"

The "Notes" in the record section inaccurately stated that Royce had been "exhausted during the previous match" and therefore threw in the towel. This was in UFC 3 and his corner did throw in the towel, and it counted as a loss, but it was because of an injury acquired in a previous match. "Exhausted" and "injured" are very different things. Corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philosopher2king (talk • contribs) 22:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "ufc60preview" :
  • a
  • [[UFC 60]] Preview Show, [[Spike TV]] 2006
• "ufc2" :
  • [[UFC 2]], Semaphore Entertainment Group 1994
  • b
• "ufc1" :
  • b
  • [[UFC 1]], Semaphore Entertainment Group 1993

DumZiBoT (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

steriod quote

I would like to add a sourced quote that Royce made about steriods before he was found to havce used them. I removed the unsourced portion of my edit. Closetindex (talk) 01:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)closetindex

I removed ESPN quote since it is full of ignorance. Firstly, bout with Matt Hughes was a catchweight fight, for which Royce needed to lose weight. Secondly in the bout with Hideo Tokoro Royce was 190 lb (according to http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VRwpWP95Pho&t=153), thirdly every top fighter is a bodybuilder in some way and they know how to gain or lose weight (you know they are capable of jumping between weight classes) and gaining less than 5% of mass (assuming natural weight is 180 lb) over 10 months is easy for Royce, he is not 'big' for his height at all so he is far from his weight limits, fourthly age of 40 isnt an problem for a bodybuilder at all (http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/index.cfm?page=article&go2=677) 89.218.91.69 (talk) 05:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The Gracie Challenge

While the text of the section "The Gracie Challenge" seems neutral, I do not see a reference. Closetindex (talk) 01:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)closetindex

BJJ Records

Is there a reason why none of his BJJ tournament history is noted? Is it simply a lack of sourcing or what? As far as I know Royce had a long string of undefeated victories in BJJ until his loss to Wallid Ismail, which was huge news at the time in MA circles, but there's no mention of it here. Livingston 17:25, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, don't think that there's a specific reason and I agree it should be added. I'll see what I can dig up. --aktsu ^(t / c) 17:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

A quick search didn't turn up anything... I guess we're looking at the 1980s then since I'd probably have found something if he had participated in a notable tournament after 1993 (UFC 1). ~~

His fight with Wallid Ismail (his first BJJ loss) took place in 1998 and I believe a lot of BJJ fights were in the early 90's. I didn't see any of them but they were really big news in the the early 90's in all of the US martial arts magazines as the Gracie's were being proclaimed gods of grappling, and you'd see them on as many covers as Bruce Lee. I do imagine that most of the fights took place before UFC 1 as I think he then started focusing more on mixed martial arts and wouldn't have worried to much about BJJ and grappling only fights as he had already proved himself in that venue, which led to him being a big name in early UFC bouts. I could probably find some of my old mags, but I doubt any would have a good list of all or even a majority of his fights. I might be able to find something though when I have some free time. Livingston 11:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Black belt in Karate too?

He says in this interview that he has a black belt in karate as well. I'm not sure if this website is reliable. Anyone else ever hear about Royce having a black belt in karate? Skeeter08865 (talk) 01:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi, he trains boxing for MMA . Never heard of it since I have been following him for 20 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.73.65.177 (talk) 19:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Died??

I'm confused as to the right-side summary box that says he died of a Brain Tumor; however, it does not list a date, nor does the article represent him in the past-tense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.98.222.16 (talk) 14:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

He's not dead but I gave him a helluva beating last night and I bet he wishes he was! --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Retirement

Royce is not officially retired and he manifested wish to fight again in the UFC ( superfight ) perhaps a rematch with Matt Hughes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.73.65.177 (talk) 18:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Also could not find the Sherdog in formation , seems highly speculative . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.73.65.177 (talk) 18:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Got this source in English that might help at http: //bleacherreport.com/articles/545206-royce-gracie-to-compete-at-ufc-brazil-additional-information-on-brazil-event

Why is Harold Howard not a loss?

Or not even mentioned at all? Throwing in the towel is not a loss in combat sports? Can anyone find a legit source for that concept? Or for the idea that the entire fight should be ignored? Don't argue with me, just tell me if you can find a source or not. Thedoorhinge (talk) 08:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The towel was thrown in before the match began, hence Sherdog doesn't count it as a loss. Project MMA uses Sherdog for record keeping.--Phospheros (talk) 10:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The towel was thrown in before the match began, and so? If you throw in the towel before the match, you don't lose? Then why throw in the towel? What else did the towel-throwing mean? This issue seems to be stonewalled by Gracie fans who are more interested in faking their hero's legend than reality. Thedoorhinge (talk) 08:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you see it here? http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Royce-Gracie-19

Do you see it here? http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Royce-Gracie/

The fight vs. Harold Howard never began. Royce was too injured to fight. I'm not sure why you think it SHOULD be included. Do you also think GSP should have a loss for not being able to fight at UFC 143? Vitor at UFC 147? --SubSeven (talk) 14:16, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Did Vitor or GSP show up to the fight and then throw in the towel, or did they cancel well in advance due to injury or personal matters? Throwing in the towel is an acknowledgement of the existence of the fight, and one's bailing on it. Otherwise why do it?Thedoorhinge (talk) 13:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Thedoorhinge. CrazyAces489 (talk) 00:15, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Howard isn't a loss because many people would like to forget that UFC3 ever happened and howard just doesn't deserve it. The entire thing was a joke where a guy hanging around the parking lot came in and won it in one match. The truth about what really happened with Shamrock and Royce both quitting will NEVER be told but its doubtful either was injured. People generally don't think Harold Howard deserves to be credited with a win both because there was no fight, because Howard's single real MMA win EVER was over Roland Payne who couldn't fight much at all and because Howard made a total fool of himself against Jennum. If Howard had any sort of credibility or even a single win other than over Payne, maybe he would deserve it. But he didn't. In a perfect world, all of UFC3 aside from the Kimo match would be erased from the record books. Or even better, UFC could maybe just forget the first four events ever happened. That way, we could all forget about the MMA career of Joe Son & the ball punching match as well. 12.12.144.130 (talk) 20:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Royce Gracie & Jim Hughes Extra Marital Affairs

Research the rift between Jim Hughes (West Hartford,CT) and his instructors. It involves eyewitness accounts of Extra Marital Affairs that Royce Gracie & Jim Hughes had after matches in CT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.227.176.147 (talk) 01:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Harold Howard again

I notice that fight still magically does not exist on wikipedia's Royce Gracie page. Royce did what Roberto Duran did- literally or metaphorically threw in the towel. Duran's page does not hide from that fact; Gracie's consistently does. Thedoorhinge (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

If you can't tell the difference between those two situations, you are not qualified to talk about any of this. You have a problem with this Harold Howard 'fight' not being listed, take it up with UFC. They are the promotion who put on the event, and they don't recognize it as a fight that took place. --SubSeven (talk) 14:52, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

If you mean "take it up with the UFC" because their stats are reliable, and if you are as qualified as you say I'm not, you know that's iffy at best. They promoted Sylvia vs. Couture by listing Tim as 6'10" after listing him as 6'8" the previous 5 years. That kinda means we have to change Tim's page to him being 6'8" and 6'10" simultaneously by this logic. I would still like to know, from anyone: why is a forfeit not a loss in this case? Thedoorhinge (talk) 12:35, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

UFC tv shows the fight, MMA fighting says that Royce withdrew from fight. MMA encyclopedia says that Royce withdrew. When you throw in the towel you lose. These are ALL primary resources. Bleacher report states that he pulls out. A loss is a loss. The argument of take it up with the UFC isn't a valid one since the UFC was at one point OWNED by Royce's brother Rorion Gracie. If you want to withdraw the comment please initiate an RFC (request for comment).

References

|

References

References

References

References

CrazyAces489 (talk) 14:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is denying that this happened, it is already noted in the article. But it does not belong on his fight record here, not because it's obvious to anybody with eyes that there was no fight to speak of, but because it's not on his UFC fight record, nor is it on his record at Sherdog. (so much for your Rorion bias, even though he hasn't had a stake in the company for many years) For us to add additional fights to Royce's record would be original research / synthesis. We don't decide what goes on his record. --SubSeven (talk) 15:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

It is listed on UFC TV as per the link above. Sherdog simply repeats what is on the record from the company. Nothing else. This is NOT original research. I have shown evidence of the match with articles on the match. At any point, throwing in the towel is a loss. Again you can make an RFC (request for comment). I have seen this issue brought up numerous times. CrazyAces489 (talk) 18:27, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

If you are somehow arguing that UFC itself (!) and/or Sherdog are not suitable sources for a fighter's official record, then uh, that is very ambitious, but more importantly it has project-wide implications. So, the place to have that conversation would be here: WT:MMA, not on this page.

There is no fight with Howard recognized on his UFC record, nor is it on Howard's record. That is the issue. See here for a helpful reminder: [5] --SubSeven (talk) 19:27, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

There was no reason for the removal of the Yoshida posting. As for the Harold fight, please open up an RFC. CrazyAces489 (talk) 23:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

What don't you understand about what I said? If you are taking issue with the sourcing of a fighters' record, that is something that needs to be addressed on a project level, as it would affect almost every fighter's article.

Everything I said also applies to the exhibition match with Yoshida. It is not on his record with PRIDE [6] or with Sherdog [7]. As with the Howard match, these events ARE COVERED in the article text, but they cannot appear on Gracie's record because the sanctioning organizations do not recognize them as official matches. --SubSeven (talk) 23:25, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Apparently, I and many others have argued with you in the past. I put the Yoshida fight in a separate section under limited rules and you just removed it. I put in the BJJ fight in its own section and you removed it. Lets just open up an RFC. Your deletions are problmeatic. CrazyAces489 (talk) 03:32, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

CrazyAces asked me to comment, so I will, though it seems obvious that people are using the idea that it's not listed on UFC.com or whatever as a ridiculous excuse to pretend it didn't happen. Royce showed up, his corner threw in the towel. Per this encyclopedia:

References

A submission (depending on the context also referred to as a "tap out" or "tapping out") is a combat sports term for yielding to the opponent, and hence resulting in an immediate defeat. The submission is commonly performed by clearly tapping the floor or the opponent with the hand or sometimes with the foot, to signal the opponent and possibly the referee of the submission. The submission can also be verbal, during which the fighter verbally informs that he is giving up. In some combative sports where the fighter has cornermen, the corner can also stop the fight by "throwing in the towel".

Thedoorhinge (talk) 09:06, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

If Gracie loses this fight, Shamrock loses vs Howard to. No ? yet it does not appear on his page... so, Gracie loses but not Shamrock ?--Skyzmma (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Gracie vs. Howard is different because the towel was thrown before the fight got started. It's either a loss or it shouldn't be on his record at all. The reason why I side on not having it all is verifiability. Readers need to be able to come to this article and be able to check if the article is correct, basically in this case there needs to be a reliable site of MMA records that include the Harold Howard fight. At the moment both ufc.com and sherdog don't even list this fight, the former is the organization the event happened under (de facto entity that can make official rulings on this because at the time of the event athletic commissions were not sanctioning MMA) and the latter is considered the go to place for MMA records, in other words two pretty strong sources. --Tuoppi gm (talk) 22:05, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

The problem with that is that it leaves Wikipedia in a position of reporting false information. I can see that the match did happen with my own eyes. Yet we have to pretend it didn't happen because ufc and sherdog choose to say nothing about it. Its the old problem that Wikipedia implicitly trusts authorities even if a primary source (i.e. the video of UFC3) contradicts what the authority says. If Sherdog and ufc.com, without explaination, pretend that a match didn't happen, they are implicitly unreliable sources. But really the early UFC tournaments are such garbage that in a perfect world they would be removed totally from the record books. Jennum doesn't deserve to be listed as a UFC Champion anymore than Howard deserves to be listed as having a win over Gracie. 75.17.125.15 (talk) 05:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It's not really false information. If you watch the UFC3 broadcast you can also see the match NOT happening. You can clearly see that the match never got started before the towel was thrown in. The truth in this case is a matter of interpretation really. I can understand the argument for both, having this fight on the record and not having it. However if you read the guidelines of Wikipedia you can see that Wikipedia is not really about the truth, it's about verifiability. Wikipedia is about what has been researched or set elsewhere by someone with sufficient authorities more than it is about what actually is true. Obviously often those two things are the same, but sometimes they are not or the actual truth is matter of debate. Therefore we must go what is essentially decided by someone else in a source material that is acceptable as the source for Wikipedia. --Tuoppi gm (talk) 19:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Also worth noting that the text in this article explains what happened at UFC3. Therefore what is the truth should be clear to whoever reads the article. --Tuoppi gm (talk) 19:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Its worth noting that nowhere in the article does it mention that the Gracie family owned, ran and determined rules for the UFC at the time of UFC3. Nor does it mention that that authorities like Sherdog and ufc.com have at points in time considered the Howard match to have happened. Nor does it mention that Royce Gracie has told many different and evolving stories about why he quit during UFC3 over the years. At one point he was claiming, for example, that he was blind. 75.17.125.15 (talk) 03:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Royce Gracie's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Rank

Royce Gracie holds the rank of 6th degree black belt in Gracie/Brazilian jiu-jitsu as confirmed by the Gracie Academy's affiliate website Gracie University, not 7th degree red and black belt. Gracie received his current rank from his late father Helio Gracie, and has stated that he will never accept another rank promotion from anyone else.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.

Not done: {{edit semi-protected}} is not required for edits to semi-protected, unprotected pages, or pending changes protected pages. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs)

Royce Gracie BJJ matches

Should be included. The first two were referenced. Please add moreCrazyAces489 (talk) 11:13, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Because you are trying to present this information in the format of a BJJ record, you need more than this. There is nothing stopping you from adding information on these matches as text in the article, but framing two matches as his entire record is a misrepresentation, unless you can show a reliable source (comparable to something like this [8] but for BJJ ) which states that these are his only two career matches. --SubSeven (talk) 18:41, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

This is sourced information. If you feel that the websites are not good information you can challenge them. You are free to add as many BJJ matches as you like and place in the matches. I have added another BJJ match. CrazyAces489 (talk) 18:43, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

You are presenting sourced information in an improper context. For the millionth time, you can add information about these matches in the article text, but you are being disingenuous by hand-picking losses and presenting them as his entire record. --SubSeven (talk) 18:50, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

You do realize, I am all about placing in an entire record. I put in the Howard match, I placed in the BJJ matches, and I placed in the Yoshida match. How have I not worked towards this? I can't find ANY BJJ match that he has won. MMA yes! BJJ no! 19:24, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

It is not on you to compile his record. I will repeat myself again: show a reliable source (comparable to something like this [9] but for BJJ )

Short of that, stop trying to falsely present three matches as his entire record.

In case you haven't noticed, basically no MMA fighters here have a BJJ record in their article, because it is virtually impossible to source. So stop trying unless you come up with a source such as what I have bolded above. --SubSeven (talk) 19:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I just added a forth loss. I am using reliable sources. I would be QUITE happy to put in any wins, but I can't find any. If you would like to put some in, you are quite free to do so. I have even inquired on a BJJ message board bout his BJJ wins, but they say he is known more as an MMA fighter. CrazyAces489 (talk) 19:54, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

A reliable source that gives HIS WHOLE RECORD!!!! --SubSeven (talk) 20:00, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to exist in the way you desire. You are free to find sources as well! I welcome them! CrazyAces489 (talk) 20:10, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

"Doesn't seem to exist in the way you desire". Then I guess you're out of luck. Now you know why MMA bio articles don't contain what you're trying to add. --SubSeven (talk) 20:21, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

You do know before he did MMA he was a BJJ fighter. 20:28, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and you would have us believe he reached a sixth-degree black belt while never defeating anybody in a match. You cannot add things to Wikipedia if they are not sourced. You have produced zero sources that indicate that Royce Gracie is a career 0-4 fighter in BJJ.

All you have is sources that indicate that those fights happened. (some of those sources are very shaky but that's not even the point right now). You can add information on these matches in the article, but you cannot present them as if they comprise his complete record. --SubSeven (talk) 20:35, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

You do not WP:OWN the article. I can place in sourced information. I did not say they were his complete record. I will write the record is incomplete. 21:10, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to prevent you from adding sourced information. It is the way in which you are adding the information that is intentionally deceptive. Why can't you add information on these matches as text in the article? You said yourself that Gracie's BJJ record cannot be sourced. Yet here you are. --SubSeven (talk) 21:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

His complete record in the format YOU want has not been found by me. This does not stop YOU from looking for it. I am presenting the record that is easy for people to view. If you don't like it, you are quite free to make an RFC. CrazyAces489 (talk) 22:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

you are presenting a PHONY record. You KNOW it is phony. WHY can't you add this information as text in the article instead of displaying it in the context of a record you know is phony? Please answer this question directly, for once in your life. --SubSeven (talk) 23:41, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I am NOT going to do an RFC for you. Stop acting like the burden is on me. YOU are the one who is trying to introduce new , contentious material to the article. This article was stable for 10+ years without a 'BJJ record' because it doesn't belong here. I have given you numerous opportunities to add this content to the article in an acceptable way and you have declined every time.

WP:BRD states that when your contribution is reverted, you then DISCUSS your edits and get consensus.

I repeat: you are the one who needs to get consensus. Every time you revert me, you are violating policy.

You have never once shown adherence to any Wikipedia policy, and you have never once shown one ounce of compromise. I am not going to do your dirty work. --SubSeven (talk) 03:19, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

An RFC is a form of compromise. You say that I am presenting something phony, but I have put in sourced information. I am also asking, in fact I am begging you to find other information of his BJJ wins. I simply can't find any. Maybe, he doesn't have any? I have gone to a BJJ forum to ask people, and they say he is more of an MMA fighter. I have multiple websites only showing losses. CrazyAces489 (talk) 05:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

How many times do I have to repeat myself? We are not going to somehow piece together his entire BJJ record from random sources. Either we find a reliable source that gives his overall record, or we don't. Until we do, then there should be no BJJ record in the article. You still haven't answered the question I bolded: WHY can't you add this information as text in the article instead of displaying it in the context of a record you know is phony?. Is it because you can't write prose? I can help with that. --SubSeven (talk) 06:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

do you have any kind of proof that I know this record is phony? You accusations are getting ridiculous. I put up proof of matches that I believe to be real. I have asked you to contribute and you have not done this at all. 108.29.64.243 CrazyAces489 (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

It is not his complete record. You know this and I know this. We can't produce reliable BJJ records, the resources are not there. Why would I contribute to what you are doing? You are not trying to better the article, you are only trying to further your agenda. --SubSeven (talk) 21:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Since you feel I have an agenda, what might you propose that agenda is? I create a lot of articles and have many edits! CrazyAces489 (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

You really want me to look at your mass contributions to Judo articles? You think that helps your claim to impartiality regarding a BJJ icon? That's funny.

Also funny is how in your vast amount of work, this is the only article you're trying to add a BJJ record to. Why the intense interest in this one case? --SubSeven (talk) 22:10, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Considering that I created articles on Soshihiro Satake, Geo Omori, Luiz França, and am creating an article on Jorge Gracie. These men were all large founders of BJJ. Something that no one else has done in the years of wikipedia. I have done a lot of research in their development. So do you think I have some sort of vendetta against BJJ? CrazyAces489 (talk) 00:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

You have a vendetta, I don't know the exact scope of it. How about the second part of my question? --SubSeven (talk) 01:23, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, I am not going to explain myself to you. I have shown that I am working to improve wikipedia. Your personal attacks aren't necessary and you feeling and openly stating that I am not acting in good faith. So with that being stated, I placed in objective data and sourced data on the BJJ record of Royce Gracie. If you want to put in more matches you can! If you would like to protest sourced data, you can open up an RFC. CrazyAces489 (talk) 04:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

From my point of view, I do not believe his BJJ record should be added in a table as it is currently, unless you have a complete, or at least partially complete and sequential listing. If it were partially complete, but sequential, then it could be stated that this was his record from this time to this time, and would be relevant at least as a snap shot. Taking a few fights though and piecing them together as has been done, looks sloppy, biased, and not relevant to the article and should be removed. I don't believe Aces has any vendetta or agenda in creating the table, but I agree with SubSeven that it doesn't work in its current format, and makes it seem like he has lost every BJJ competetion he has been in, regardless of any preface explanations, that many won't read. Livingston 14:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

there isn't any record of him winning any BJJ matches. There are record of him losing them. CrazyAces489 (talk) 05:46, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Carlson Gracie stated that "Here in Brazil, I've never seen Royce win ONE championship. He lost to everyone. He lost to De La Riva, who was so much smaller than him. He tapped out to Paschoal. He's a good fighter, but never won anything here. He's not this "phenomenon" that they talk about."

References

CrazyAces489 (talk) 05:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

If Royce Gracie had never won a single BJJ match, then

1) why would Carlson call him a good fighter

2) why would Carlson single out a couple of losses in particular

3) why would Carlson say he never won a CHAMPIONSHIP? That's a far cry from never winning a match

I only point this out to highlight your ridiculously flawed logic, because that link is not at all a reliable source anyway. It's a supposed interview of Carlson Gracie who is literally ranting and raving. At one point he calls Reylson 'retarded'. That's your source? Fight records on Wikipedia are not sourced from interviews of bitter instructors. --SubSeven (talk) 06:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

1) There is a difference between BJJ and MMA. It's like the difference between the IBJJF and the UFC

2) The couple of losses which are against notable grapplers. 3) He never did win a BJJ championship. There is no record of him ever winning a BJJ match. I believe that Carlson Gracie is a reliable source. He was a Vale Tudo fighter, an instructor, and personally knows Royce Gracie. CrazyAces489 (talk) 06:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

You think WP:RS/N would agree with you? Go for it. --SubSeven (talk) 06:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

It still doesn't address the problem that a hand-picked couple of losses doesn't in any way constistute a complete fight record, and is only deceptive if presented in that way, but you wouldn't even get that far. --SubSeven (talk) 06:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Deceptive is leaving it out. Deceptive is saying Helio Gracie founded BJJ when his brother Carlos and even Jorge played a bigger role. I am open in bringing this to RFC. Even James Toney has an MMA record. Is it deceptive? No. It is what the record shows. CrazyAces489 (talk) 06:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I just told you where to take it. WP:RS/N. Your source is garbage. We know what James Toney's MMA record because records are kept, those fights are sanctioned by a governing body, and there are databases. None of that is the case with BJJ in Brazil, except with the Mundials and such to some extent, and this is even more so the case when Royce was competing. The fact you have to dig up a two-decade-old interview should tell you all you need to know. That's why there are not BJJ records in fighters' articles here. We don't include information we can't source. --SubSeven (talk) 06:31, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Bjj existed before MMA. At least 50 years. Just because you can't find sources on the internet doesn't mean they don't count or don't exist. You don't see the Gracie Kimura fight as a "sanctioned fight," but it still holds weight in history. Past that André Galvão and Jonathan Torres have records. CrazyAces489 (talk) 07:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

If it can't be reliably sourced, then according to Wikipedia, it didn't happen. If you don't know that after 3000+ edits, then I don't know what to tell you. So, you won't be going to WP:RS/N then? --SubSeven (talk) 16:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

His win's can't be sourced. So they must not have happened. His losses can be sourced. So they did happen. CrazyAces489 (talk) 14:47, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

His losses can't be sourced. As I've already explained, your source is not sufficient. You are conceding this point as long as you don't take it to WP:RS/N.

And, as I've explained many times, and as the other editor agreed with, the primary contention is not even that these specific fights happened, but that you are hand picking them and presenting them as his complete record. The one terrible source you're desperately clinging to basically spells out that he DID have other matches, as I explained in three bullet points above, besides just plain common sense that a multiple degree black belt could have never won a single match in competition. --SubSeven (talk) 04:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

please take this to an RFC. This has been discussed multiple times in the page archives and now. Proper sourcing of the fights listed exist. Past that, you have previously claimed above (01:23, 6 December 2014 ) that I have a vendetta against BJJ? Well why would I be one of the few people fighting to have an article on Jorge Gracie (the first person to master BJJ) to exist while others are fighting to have it deleted? (as per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jorge Gracie (2nd nomination) CrazyAces489 (talk) 13:21, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

So you're not going to WP:RS/N then? How come?

I never said you had a vendetta against BJJ. --SubSeven (talk) 16:03, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Really, what was this? [10] CrazyAces489 (talk) 20:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Whenever you're cornered, you always to try to deflect to some other issue. --SubSeven (talk) 20:56, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Not true, I have stated that I am open to an RFC. Remember a record exists for his Harold Howard Fight [11] Also his BJJ fights are documented. They are even on video. [12] CrazyAces489 (talk) 23:26, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Conversation is inncomplete, do not delete information [13] until it is over. You are edit warring [14] CrazyAces489 (talk) 16:22, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Issues with article

I removed some content that was unsourced since 2009, deleted some PV, and removed some other content that was unsourced and a BLP violation. The article requires improved referencing with large sections having no source. The article reads like a fan site in some sections and the unreferenced descriptions of fights in particular need work or trimming back. Flat Out (talk) 04:18, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 12 July 2015

I wish to fix bare refs with a tool.--Catlemur (talk) 11:02, 12 July 2015 (UTC) Catlemur (talk) 11:02, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Context and concision

Dear Wikipedians

I have been editing the article adding more information and making it more complete. I have been talking with @NEDOCHAN: which helped me correct any grammar mistakes I've added and correct into Wiki, unfortunately, he removed a lot of important context to the page. For example, "The Gracie brothers continued the family's tradition of the "Gracie Challenge", in which they challenged other martial artists to a no-holds-barred Vale Tudo match in their gym in order to prove the superiority of Gracie jiu-jitsu. The Gracie in Action tapes inspired Art Davie to create the UFC." losing an entire context about the tapes. Or adding downright inncurate information, such as claiming the Takada vs Gracie bout happened at the Pride FC: Grand Prix 2000 - Finals in May 1, 2000 and not at the Pride FC: Grand Prix 2000 - Opening Round at January 30, 2000. Which can be checked by all this fighting data bases (). I still believe some of his changes were necessary and made the whole article better, but I also think he removed some of the information that had no reason to be removed. LordLoko (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for starting the discussion. I apologise I made a mistake confusing the two events. I have corrected that. I have also added the context to the tapes. As for the rest, the long descriptions of fights are not NOTABLE and largely unsourced.NEDOCHAN (talk) 18:05, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I disagree in some points, for example, removing the description of UFC 5 the superfight makes absolutely no sense. It just says match lasted 36 minutes but the match is absolutely infamous in the whole MMA because Shamrock stayed 30 minutes on Royce's guard headbutting and punching him while Royce tried to sweep and get gi chokes. It is one of the most famous moments of UFC history and has been mentioned multiple times in other articles including the two sources provided and it recieves 0 context why it is even controversial. Second, on "Rivalry with Ken Shamrock" I wrote "Also according to Shamrock, he had underestimated his opponent, before the event he and his trainer and fellow Pancrase wrestler Masakatsu Funaki had watched the Gracie in Action tapes and were sure he could defeat him using his catch wrestling skills.", a trustable source and important for the context of the their rivalry is not considered notable? I see the reason of most changes but some just look arbitrary.LordLoko (talk) 19:19, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Fights should be summarised very briefly and details such as discussions Shamrock had with Funaki are UNDUE in an article about Royce Gracie.NEDOCHAN (talk) 23:16, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

References

2022 hunter games

I was the person who originally added this point. A source for the victory is available on Sig Sauers official YouTube channel video titled Hunter Games 2022 at 6:00. I’m still new to editing Wikipedia so I don’t know how to add citations. 2603:800C:353C:F800:9D83:8573:86B9:4A9C (talk) 06:05, 25 July 2023 (UTC)