Talk:South African English

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Exorcising the nonsense

Kuratowski's Ghost has been removing 'nonsense' left right and centre from this article, rendering it rather dead. Rather than going at it with a machete, perhaps some of the value could be restored, but in a way that meets Ghost's high standards. As an ignorant reader, I can understand "pawk the kaw dahwn tahwn", not the IPA. Now the IPA may be definitive for the experts, but a casual reader can't understand it, and can understand "pawk the kaw dahwn tahwn". I personally know people who sound like this. All the disclaimers for the purist can be put in place, but cutting it out has taken value from the article.

Similarly, *work → weck — /wɛk/, which Ghost has excised. I personally know someone who pronounces the word work like 'weck'. So it's not nonsense. Fix the IPA if it's wrong. Add whatever clarifications about this - but stop removing everything! Greenman 08:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Writing things like pawk is meaningless because it is not at all clear what is meant by aw. To me it looks like a way to decribe the vowel in words like "saw", "paw", which is not at all the the same vowel used by first language English speakers in SA for the vowel in "park", not even close. Writing pahk for New Zealand English is even more meaningless since "ah" could denote almost any pronunciation of the "a". Kuratowski's Ghost 12:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Pidgin versions

Okay, so here's what I'm thinking - I don't think the "pidgins" that Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa-speakers use (which is, for a start, not a specific thing - people who's home language is Venda, for example, range in English proficiency from being indecipherable to not sounding any different to an Anglo-African when speaking) count as South African English at all. They're just incorrect. You don't tell someone who speaks French badly that he's using a different dialect of French; he's just not speaking it properly. Likewise, South African English is the English which is spoken by South Africans whose home language is English, or by those who speak it as well as those English-speaking South Africans. Such things as confusing "he" and "she", or "I can like to wear a jean pant" (to quote Jeremy Mansfield) are not English. What's everyones' take on this? Can I delete that paragraph? Joziboy 07:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Please do. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 07:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, what's with the we-sound-like-upper-class-Brits rubbish? The South African accent is nothing like the upper class British accent. Joziboy 15:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

We are closer to upper-class British than Americans or Australians, the pronunciation of the "a" in "park", "father" as a longer version of the vowel in "hot" being the obvious example of this. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Joziboy here, I'm afraid.

— The typical ESSAn accent is nothing like the "upper-class British accent", unless what you mean by that is some sort of false SA notion of what the UCB accent must sound like.

— Whilst it is true that SA English generally has a deeply exaggerated [AW] sound in the above examples (park = "bawk") and that most ESSAns say off as in "awful", rather than as in "offal", similarities such as these (with a certain type of toff accent) are coincidental (and not that similar to the ear in any case) (convergent evolution, you might say) and there are in fact vastly more deep differences than superficial similarities.

— The ESSAn accent had its clear origins among the English speakers in the British colonial settlements of the E. Cape in 1820 and of Natal 1840s. (Incidentally, it's surprising how many ESSAns can trace their antecedents to these two groups of settlers, in spite of all the later settlements, such as a not insubstantial number of British settlers over the period 1945 to 1948 and a steady flow through the 1950s-mid-70s.)

— The point is the two floods of 19th-century British settlers were made up mostly of simple rural farming or small-town working people (NOT boatloads of exiled aristoctrats and royals!) and what's more, mostly from non-SE-England, i.e., from Yorkshire and Lancashire, the West Country, and also Scots and Welsh -- all with very distinct accents (and dialects) that were far removed from the toffish UCB accents.

— There have of course been other substantial influences on the ESSAn accent since then, such as the Yiddish-German-speaking Jewish Lithuanians, who settled in towns in the early 20th century: their influence on the distinctive "Joburg" accent, as following generations acquired English as their native tongue, hasn't received enough attention.

— And then, least of all (and this is where I also agree with many commenters protesting about the poor quality of this article in broadly confusing native-SAEnglish/ESSAns with non-native-English speakers and their languages)… least of all there have been slighter and varied influences by contact with speakers of these other languages – Dutch, Afrikaans, Nguni languages, Portuguese, etc – with whom ESSAns have interacted over the past 180-odd years.

— But remember, this history of ESSAns (and all peoples there) has been characterised by adversarialism, rivalry, cycles of dominance-oppression and (micro-)geographical separation, factors that would favour cultural enclavism and discourage cultural (and linguistic) cross-fertilization. (For goodness sake, far from being convinced by lists of loans words between, for example, SAEnglish and Afrikaans, to draw specious conclusions about close liguistic miscegenation and co-evolution, it's astounding how few loan words and other linguistic influences there are between SAEnglish and the other languages it has cohabited with for nearly two centuries.) Brockle 15:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Well I suppose there isn't really a uniform pronunciation - the article says as much. Someone from KZN would flatten "i" sounds: fish -> fush (which sounds a lot more like the New Zealanders than the British). I know when I moved to the UK it was vowel sounds that created the biggest misunderstandings. Apparently I pronounce "desk" like Brits pronounce "disk".. and the way we pronounce "off", "poor", "tour" etc still amuses my British friends, who pronounce them very differently to that. Joziboy 06:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Baxelele, LSD, laba abantu baphum'eKoloni, baxelele! Abaqondi ukuba bathetha ngantoni-na! Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 16:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Haha, ehhe! Siyazi ukuthi iKoloni alineNingizimu Afrika... mhlawumbe bakhuluma isiNgisi saseNgilandi laphaya :) Joziboy 22:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Nawe uyabona? Kudala ndikuxele ngalaba abantu! Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 22:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The similarities between New Zealand English and Natal English is surely due to the 1840's immigration to both places from practically the same source populations in Britain. Roger (talk) 09:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Afrikaans influence

I have doubts about the assertion that Eastern Cape English is the regional variation most influenced by Afrikaans. Thanks to the 1820 settlers, the Eastern Cape is the part of SA where English has been longest established - it's this, rather than any Afrikaans influence, that I thought was responsible for the characteristically broad Eastern Cape accent.

More generally, I think the influence of Afrikaans on South African English is overstated. Looking at the examples given in the article: "Are you coming with?" is recognisably derived from "kom jy saam?". But I fail to see the Afrikaans influence on a phrase like or "do you know who I am". "Just now" in English may correspond to "net nou" or "nou die dag" in Afrikaans - but these are colloquial Afrikaans, and you could just as well argue that it's a case of Afrikaans being influenced by SA English as one of SAE being influenced by Afrikaans.

The rather flexible use of "now / now-now / just now" by South Africans does however reflect usage in other parts of the continent. "Sasa" in Swahili, "soon" in East African English, or "já" in Angolan Portuguese can all mean anything from "now" to an indeterminite time in the future.

Yes, nameless, I strongly agree with your general assertions here, wrt ECape English and wrt the influence generally of Afrikaans on SA English. Please see my lengthy comments in the section above (the section with the somewhat irrelevant title "Pidgin versions"). Brockle 15:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I found this interesting article http://www.roepstem.net/sa-english.html (Unfortunately it is in Dutch, but is understandable for Afrikaans speakers) Roger (talk) 20:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I think afrikaans influenced the word boom slang. This could maybe be added to the "Contributions to English Worldwide" section. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.5.112 (talk) 19:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"Boomslang" is Afrikaans - not merely "influenced". It literally means "tree snake" but actually is the common name of a highly venomous species of tree dwelling snake. (Also note that it is written as one word.) Roger (talk) 19:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

zimbabwe

cites of the country —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.60.40 (talk) 01:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

This Article Sucks

Exactly. I was genuinely curious about this dialect. Then I realized that this is one of the worst dialect articles on Wikipedia. The phonology section needs to be much larger. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 05:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It certainly does, this article makes little sense to an English Speaking South African like myself. Travsuth (talk) 03:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

"Afrikaans words like "Jirre", "Jisses", "Jislaaik""

"Afrikaans words like "Jirre", "Jisses", "Jislaaik" are common even amongst Anglo-Africans." But what do they mean? 203.59.214.105 (talk) 04:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

They are blasphemous expletives derived from the name of Jesus Christ Roger (talk) 11:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Reading those words offend me almost as much as hearing them does.

I actually think they should be removed. And they are not common amongst Anglo-Africans with manners.Mosheroni (talk) 12:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I would think "jirre" derives from Afrikaans/Dutch He(e)re (Lord). Compare Griekwa-Afrikaans "My hulp is vannie Jirre, van Hom" (My help comes from the Lord).

A similar expression also used by South African English speakers - to indicate surprise and the like - is "yess" or "yiss".

Ni'jluuseger (talk) 15:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Words peculiar to South African English

"Some words peculiar to South African English include 'takkies', 'tackie' or 'tekkie' for sneakers (American) or trainers (British), 'combi' or 'kombi' for a small van, 'bakkie' for a pick-up truck, 'kiff' for pleasurable, 'lekker' for nice, 'donga' for ditch and 'jol' for party."

Okay, I know from studying German that 'Kombi' is a word used there for a small van, and 'lecker' is 'delicious,' which I would think is considered more-or-less equivalent to 'nice.' Something tells me that there is no way these two words are NOT Dutch/Afrikaans loanwords -- citation for this assertion . . . ?

63.165.88.230 (talk) 00:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has claimed that "lekker" is not a loanword from Afrikaans, it started out as simple codeswitching by biligual English/Afrikaans speakers.

The word "Kombi" is interesting in that the Volkswagen minibus/van was in fact branded "Kombi" in South Africa when it was introduced many years ago - a time when it was the only one of its class on the market. The same brand name was probably also used in Germany. The phenomenon of brand names becoming generic terms for the entire class of objects is well known - In the US a lot of people ask for a "Kleenex" regardless of the actual brand of facial tissue someone hands them. "Hoover" is another well known example that even has a verb form.

"Tekkie" is Afrikaans of uncertain origin.

"Kiff" is children's slang and according to my nieces and nephews is already obsolete: "Only OLD people say kiff" (their emphasis).

"Bakkie" is Afrikaans, origin uncertain, though I personally favour "buckboard" (a type of open flat horse-drawn wagon for transporting freight)

"Donga" is an Nguni (isiXhosa) word.

"Jol" is Afrikaans, origin uncertain. Roger (talk) 08:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

My concern is that these words are called "peculiar to South African English" -- and they are not. Looks like most of them are loanwords (more than I was personally aware of, but I'm not South African and don't speak Afrikaans or Dutch.) So . . . no assertion for peculiarity. 63.165.88.189 (talk) 23:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

And, to be fair, 'Hoover' is only used as a verb/general noun in British English as far as I know. It's certainly not a US English thing. 63.165.88.189 (talk) 23:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell (I am a native SA English speaker and I'm also fluent in Afrikaans) they are all loanwords. It seems to me that they became adopted into SA English as a result of code switching. I'm wondering at what point a word used frequently through code switching becomes a loanword? Code switching is extremely common in SA - I do it all the time.

Their "peculiarity" is that they do not occur anywhere else within the global family of English - I don't think whoever wrote that phrase really meant that they do not occur in any other language at all. Perhaps that sentence needs to be changed. Roger (talk) 08:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the point is reached when a a word completely replaces the equivalent found in other varieties of English. Potentially any Afrikaans word can occur through codeswitching, but there is a smaller group of words that have become universally used. For example the fruit known as a tangerine in UK English is always a nartjie in SA English. A pickup truck is always a bakkie etc. The codeswitched words on the other hand are not used universally and usually in informal situations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.72.129 (talk) 13:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Combi does get used in Zimbabwe, according to this blog: https://wellitsafrica.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-bus-system.html

~ 2601:441:4400:1740:DDB7:D288:9240:6159 (talk) 02:42, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Inversion in indirect/embedded questions

It appears to be common in some varieties of South African English to use inversion in indirect/embedded questions (I don't know when is the plane going to land, We need to create awareness of what is autism). I've found online sources for this in Indian[1] and black[2] varieties of South African English, but I'd like a more comprehensive account of its distribution. (Here's a white South African using this construction: [3].) This is apparently a common feature of World Englishes and L2 speakers of English in general. Is the 'standard' English pattern (I don't know when the plane is going to land, We need to create awareness of what autism is) common in some varieties of South African English? Chris Johnson (talk) 16:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm a native SA English speaker. Your examples strike me as plain wrong. If one "adjusts" the punctuation of your first example one gets: "I don't know. When is the plane going to land?". Your second example looks like a common error by a second language English speaker. I don't think there is anything particularly South African in your examples. Roger (talk) 17:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Cultivated South African English

There seems to be a cultivated variety of South African English. One of my teachers seems to speak it. I couldn't describe it to you phonetically right now, but it sounds a lot like RP to my ears. It doesn't sound like stereotypical South African English. Thegryseone (talk) 22:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The stereotypical South African English is a Hollywood invention resulting from American actors trying (and failing) to imitate an Afrikaan speaking person speaking English. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 22:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that everything is America's fault. Thegryseone (talk) 01:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Well stereotypical South African English is probably also found in British movies, so feel free to drop "Hollywood" :P The point is that no South Africans speak in the manner portrayed on screen. That annoying kiddie faced actor in Blood Diamnd managed a good approximation of an Afrikaans speaking person speaking English but this is hardly what first language English speakers in South Africa sound like. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 14:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm what Kuratowski's Ghost says. South Africans who are or were heard speaking English reasonably frequently in the international media: Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, Ernie Els, Thabo Mbeki, Francois Pienaar, Jacob Zuma, Charlize Theron, all have one thing in common besides being South African - Not a single one of them is a mother tongue English speaker! In Charlize's case of course she has deliberately cultivated an American accent. Roger (talk) 20:26, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Malan's book

The article devotes too much attention to Malan's book which is a humorous look at low income Afrikaans speaking people in a few northern suburbs of Cape Town attempting to speak English. Such "English" is hardly representative of Cape Town English let alone South African English, in fact despite being a Cape Town English speaker myself I can't even understand the title of the book. Imagine if someone stuffed an article on British English with info on a book on how English is pronounced by Panjabi's in Brick Lane. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 23:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

IPA chart for English dialects

Its a real shame that in such a mature article the column for SA English is completely blank!!! Unfortunately I don't know IPA well enough to do it myself. Roger (talk) 00:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Please people! Does absolutely nobody know how to use the International Phonetic Alphabet? I'm currently fighting what looks like a losing battle just to keep the column for SA English in the table - there are people who want to delete it because it is empty! Please help!!!!! Roger (talk) 17:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I know how to use it. I just don't know how to transcribe the phonemes of South African English. I know the common phonetic realizations of some of their vowels, but I don't think that's what they want. Thegryseone (talk) 18:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Article Title

Please do not do the move as soon as you propose it - allow a reasonable time (at least a few days) for a consensus to be reached. I Oppose on the grounds that this article is about English as spoken by Mother Tongue (First Language) English speaking South Africans - who are definitely not all white. Significant proportions of Coloured and Indian South Africans are Mother Tongue English speakers - see the official census data. Roger (talk) 08:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Opposement This is the English spoken by first language speakers. Every language article comes with the assumption that it's describing the dialect of first language speakers. If you're concerned that it may be confused with non-standard accents/dialects then this is not an issue, as it describes what first language speakers use.

The qualifier is unnecessary, nonsensical, and I don't like the implication. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 10:23, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I also object to the implication - its simply racist. Roger (talk) 16:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'll have a go at responding to this.

What do you mean by "no one would respond" - respond to what, when, where?

"Blacks, for example, don't use a fully open and back allophone in the BATH/START class. They also have a very different vowel for MOUTH (i.e., different than whites). Indian South African English differs in many ways from WSAfE as well. It doesn't have the tendency to monophthongize /aɪ/ and /aʊ/, for example." These are all features of second language speech. Any language has various accents even within a country that is not necessarly linked to race. In England do whites from Liverpool sound the same as whites from South London? In the US do Blacks from Boston sound the same as Blacks from New Orleans? The same applies to SAE. Please never forget that this article is exclusively about Mother Tongue English speakers.

Finally your statement "This article was total shit before I took it over anyway" is a violation of WP:OWN. Its not your article. Roger (talk) 18:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

\

Last thing first: You posted the proposal at 02:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC). I posted my first response at 08:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC). Tebello responded at 10:23, 14 March 2009 (UTC). Now please explain how that constitutes "no one would respond"?

I have no interest in discussing any "conclusion" drawn from a simple typo. The simple fact that I am a mother tongue (L1) speaker of South African English is all the credibility I need.

Re racism. Given that articles about languages here on WP are (unless specified otherwise) presumed to be applicable to mother tongue (L1) speakers only, I took it that you imply that that only whites in South Africa speak Mother Tongue (L1) English. The rest of your diatribe about racism is not relevant to this topic.

You appear to be blind to the point that this article is about South African English as a whole and not exclusively about the variants spoken only by whites.

I'm not convinced that any racially exclusive L1 varieties of SAE exist.

The ad hominem nature of your post above is noted. I take offence at your presumption to teach South Africans about racism. I couldn't care less about your race/ethnicity/nationality/gender/religion/sexual orientation/age/place of residence/occupation/whatever this is getting boring... Roger (talk) 21:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it's clear that whatever meaningful contribution you may have had to this article is now at an end. Your swift descent into vicious [i]ad hominems[/i] and your inability to handle any kind of constructive debate mean that henceforth even if you are unbanned and permitted to continue editing you will not be taken seriously.

For the record, for being 'the closest thing to an expert this article has ever seen' you've shown a surprising disregard for proper research and as a result the entire basis under which you altered the article was fundamentally flawed. What the other two editors have been trying to explain to you all along is that language pronunciation is most certainly not as strongly split along racial lines as you imagine, but instead is divided neatly between L1 speakers who have a broadly similar manner of speaking and L2 speakers of all kinds. Thus L1 English speakers, whether white, black, Indian or coloured, usually speak the same variants of South African English as each other regardless of race. As a personal example, aside from one or two counter-examples, every single one of the L1 English-speaking black and Indian South Africans I have known both in school and at work spoke in a manner completely indistinguishable to their white L1 counterparts, to the extent that if you were to hear them on the phone you would discern no difference.

This should hardly be surprising, as the same phenomenon is true in Great Britain, the United States and a host of other countries, where the main English variant of L1 speakers is not referred to as "White American English" or the like because it would be inaccurate due to the large numbers of non-whites who speak the variant. You wouldn't seriously make a claim similar to 'Blacks, for example, don't use a fully open and back allophone in the BATH/START class' in reference to L1 speakers of AE, would you? After all, I hardly think Barack Obama, Colin Powell, Condi Rice and Oprah Winfrey are speakers of AAVE. But you have no hesitation in making the same bald generalisation for South Africans, completely ignoring the distinction between L1 and L2 English speakers.

Finally, the concept of "White South African English" is flawed on another fundamental level, which is that the majority of white South Africans are not L1 English speakers but rather L1 Afrikaans speakers, whose variation in pronunciation is often as dissimilar to standard SAE as that of L2 black & Indian English speakers. So to refer to 'White South African English' is obviously inaccurate. Indeed, with the rate of change occurring at the moment, it's not inconceivable that the number of non-white L1 English speakers may outnumber white L1 speakers within a relatively short period of time, driving yet another nail into the coffin of your dead argument. —Impi (talk) 12:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Another L1 speaker of Tripe-lish bites the dust. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 17:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Pardon me for jumping in here, but if the different varieties aren't different enough we may be able to include them together in this article. I know virtually nothing of South African English, so I may be wrong. However, I question Roger's dismissal of e.g. features of Black and Indian English speech as those of second language learners and therefore not worthy of inclusion. It's not uncommon for second language learners to bring up children who inherit their SL speech patterns despite being monolingual. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

He didn't say they're not worthy of inclusion. He, and I, said that unless otherwise stated, language articles can be assumed to describe the dialect spoken by L1 mother tongue speakers. L2 varieties may be mentioned, or even given their own articles, but it's just unnecessary to qualify the main article's title to explicitely state that it's refering to L1.

I'm assuming here that by "white" he meant first-language English speaking, which is fallacious on at least two counts (the qualifier is neither a necessary condition nor a sufficient condition), either for L1 speech or (the less strict claim) merely for speaking with the accent outlined her, as outlined above by other editors. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 06:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Let me make sure I understand what's going on here. The gryseone suggested we rename this article to White South African English but there's opposition to this because this article is or should be covering speech characteristic of all L1 SAfE speakers no matter the race. Right? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. And then he got banned.

Not only is it not necessary to be "white" to speak L1 English as he seemed to believe (with his arguments about Ebonics) as many non-"white" are first language English speakers, it's also not sufficient as most "white" South Africans aren't even first language English speakers. His strawman arguments were also not impressive. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 08:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

In case it wasn't clear, he got blocked not for his views but for his ongoing spree of personal attacks. Pfainuk talk 10:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

What do we make, then, of the quote he provided from A Handbook of Varieties of English? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 13:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

My view? I am not a South African and am largely unfamiliar with South African English, thus I cannot comment from personal experience. But I take the source to imply that, while there is potential for the emergence of new L1 varieties by the mechanism you pointed out earlier (L1 English-speakers who learnt English from speakers of L2 varieties), such varieties have not yet actually emerged. As such, he implies that the variety that he calls "White South African English" is still the predominant - and only established - L1 form of English spoken in South Africa.

I rather think that using racial terminology is probably a bad idea in this context unless there the difference in dialects can clearly be defined racially (which appears to be disputed in this case). Given that the other L1 forms as described are still establishing themselves, I think that - unless length becomes a serious factor - discussing them as part of this article would not be inappropriate. If and when they are clearly established, we can split these varieties off with the names generally accepted by scholarly works. I would not outright oppose a move to "White South African English", but I do not see that it is necessary either.

Note that my revert was more for procedural reasons than anything else. There was nothing resembling consensus for the move or article split that Thegrysone was attempting, and the GFDL does not allow for a cut-and-paste article split without attribution. Pfainuk talk 16:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

All right, then it seems that for now the article title should stay the same and, pending further research or clarification, we can simply discuss the differences amongst varieties (be they associated with specific racial groups or not) in the article prose similar to the way the article discusses General, Broad, and Cultivated SAfE. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The source that that quote came from is the best and most up to date work on phonology of the varieties of English that I've come across. Wells' Accents of English books are over twenty five years old now, so I don't think they're particularly relevant anymore. In HOVOE, White South African English and Black South African English (and also Indian South African English) are separate varieties. There must be differences between the two (three) or why the hell would they bother? I think this goes with common sense. Blacks tend to have different accents from whites in many places where English is spoken. This is definitely the case in the United States and seems to be somewhat the case in England, e.g., London. Obviously, there are exceptions, like with almost everything else in the universe. Clearly you guys are far too hypersensitive to even be capable of discussing race, so I shouldn't have even brought it up with you people. Apparently, even suggesting that white people can be different from black people constitutes racism when talking to you guys. That's not an attack, it's simply an observation. If you can respond to this without resorting to ad hominem attacks, then I'd be happy to discuss it with you (Roger or whoever). Thegryseone (talk) 22:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Improving the phonology section

The positive result of the rejected move proposal is that the proposer (despite errors and flawed judgement) has left the article with the beginning of a desparately needed section on phonology. It needs cleaning up and expanding.

About the quote from a textbook, the following comment: It is only one quote from one book. It is not quoted from a stone tablet brought down from the sacred mountain by the prophet. Roger (talk) 11:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Whoa, there. Let's not strawman here. I'd feel better about an outright dismissal of an expert's opinion if it were contextualized with other experts' opinions.

How do we expand on the phonology section? Right now, it's basically a list of the vowels and their phonetic atributes. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 16:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary of South African English contains detailed IPA charts of the language, even including triphthongs. I can't add them to the article, due to technical reasons, but I could add unicode entities/codes and word examples here, so that somebody else can then format them and add them to the article? Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 17:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

[IPA chart for English dialects]] has the basics of of what looks like "generic" SA English. Perhaps we could copy that and then expand on it.

I don't think my comment on the quote is a strawman at all. I just pointed out that the quote is merely the opinion of one small group of experts and as such is subject to rebuttal. I actually don't think the quote contradicts the consensus we reached here about race and varieties of L1 SA English at all. Roger (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the phonology section is great how it is, especially when compared to how it was before (remember park the car downtown anyone?). It is an in depth description of the vowels and consonants and how their realizations differ from Cultivated to General to Broad. I don't see what more anyone could want. What primarily distinguishes one accent of English from another is how the vowels (and possibly consonants) are pronounced. I mean, sure, both WSAfrE and Aussie English have a BATH vowel, but the way it is pronounced in General and Broad WSAfrE clearly differentiates it from the fronted Aussie pronunciation. That's why I think, when describing accents, we should use narrow phonetic transcriptions to help people understand what really makes one accent sound different from another. To state my point more concisely: two accents can have identical phonology and still sound a world apart from one another. There are other things like voice quality, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of research available on these things.

The source that that quote came from is the best and most up to date work on phonology of the varieties of English that I've come across. Wells' Accents of English books are over twenty five years old now, so I don't think they're particularly relevant anymore. In HOVOE, White South African English and Black South African English (and also Indian South African English) are separate varieties. There must be differences between the two (three) or why the hell would they bother? I think this goes with common sense. Blacks tend to have different accents from whites in many places where English is spoken. This is definitely the case in the United States and seems to be somewhat the case in England, e.g., London. Obviously, there are exceptions, like with almost everything else in the universe. Clearly you guys are far too hypersensitive to even be capable of discussing race, so I shouldn't have even brought it up with you people. Apparently, even suggesting that white people can be different from black people constitutes racism when talking to you guys. That's not an attack, it's simply an observation. If you can respond to this without resorting to ad hominem attacks, then I'd be happy to discuss it with you (Roger or whoever). Thegryseone (talk) 22:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

My take on most of the phonology section is that the vowels section is sort of listy. If we can turn the information into a table, it might make the information more accessable. There still can (and should) be prose, but that could perhaps be more focused on dialectal varieties or phonology (as opposed to phonetics). The sonorants section is pretty strong IMHO.

For anyone who wishes to contribute to the discussion of dialectal variation, per Thegryseone's paragraph above, I recommend we all play nice. Most importantly, do not imply that other editors or their suggestions are racist. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I see where you're coming from. A table sounds good, as long as we keep the information. It can be a bit overwhelming when it's all prose like it is, but I like the information. Thegryseone (talk) 23:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The edits that were recently reverted are correct observations, tune is not pronounced choon in South African English nor is dune pronouced as june which is what the article essentially says if you understand IPA, "choon" might be used as a comical exaggeration of an Afrikaans accent but first language speakers always say "tyoon" and "dyoon" (as opposed to American "toon" and "doon"). The description of South African voiceless stops as unaspirated is also technically wrong as pointed out in the edit comment, Xhosa p, t, k would be examples of unaspirated voiceless stops but neither first language English speakers in SA nor people with a Xhosa accent pronounce English p, t, k as unaspirated, first language speakers pronounce them typically with weak aspiration or sometimes moderate aspiration while people with a Xhosa accent pronounce them strongly aspirated like the Xhosa ph, th, kh sounds. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 23:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but that is a bit of a digression. Do you just mean all the people you know or all L1 speakers in South Africa? You're probably a cultivated speaker. Thegryseone (talk) 23:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Well I don't personally know evey English speaker in SA :) but as a South African I am familiar with the various accents around the country. I am talking about L1 speakers. My own accent would fall under General. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 23:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

What does the cited source Lass (2002) say exactly? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

You're probably right, Kuratowski. The reason I thought you were Cultivated is because you have a PhD. I could see Cultivated speakers being more likely to pronounce toon as tyoon, because the whole choon thing (yod-coalescence) was originally stigmatized in England by RP speakers. RP is kind of like the English equivalent of Cultivated if you weren't aware of that. But you say you're a General speaker, so I'll assume you know your own accent. Apparently that source was incorrect. The thing that confuses me about the consonantal aspiration is that there was a discussion about that on this talk page, and you said that South Africans definitely don't aspirate their consonants. So, which is it? I actually don't know what it says, Aeusoes1. I got it from another source. You could probably figure it out by searching on Google scholar. That's what I do. Thegryseone (talk) 00:16, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

When I said it in the discussion I was making the same mistake as the book and other sloppy sources when describing say the t sound in stick (as pronounced in probably all English dialects) as "unaspirated". It is more correctly described as weakly aspirated in contrast to t in tick which is moderately aspirated in many English dialects but again only weakly aspirated in South African English. The t is Chinese "Tao" is an example of a t sound that is really unaspirated. To the English ear it sounds like a softly pronounced d sound. Similarly the Xhosa or Zulu t is unaspirated (although also glottalized) and sounds like a d to an English speaker. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 22:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Influence on British English

Questionable:

This lexicon influenced British English through soldiers returning from the Boer War and through returning British settlers with a significant number of Afrikaner settlers who left the Union of South Africa in 1931.

Highly questionable:

South African lexicon enriched the British lexicon more by the arrival of white South African settlers of both British and Afrikaner descent who left their home country in 1994.

Really? This suggests that British people now say 'howzit', 'you coming with', 'braai', and 'just now' - the only people in the UK I know I do are South Africans and Zimbabweans! As for the use of the word 'settlers', please - people who came to the UK from South Africa were migrants! Quiensabe (talk) 10:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

However dubious the claims quoted above I can think of one word that has come into British (or even more widespread) English from Afrikaans: "trek" and its variants such as "trekking". Its adoption probably dates from the mid to late 19th century. Roger (talk) 12:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, off the top of my head, "commando" and "aardvark". - htonl (talk) 15:23, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

And kop (at a stadium). 169.1.79.165 (talk) 19:24, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

SAE word for Association football

I'll explain why I'm asking if you want, but now I'll get straight to the point:

In your opinion, is the following question easily answerable in one word, or does it depend?

In South African English, what's "Association football" called?

Chrisrus (talk) 04:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer, although football is sometimes used in situations where its meaning is unambigious. If we take organisation names as an indication, we have the South African Football Association (SAFA) and the Premier Soccer League (PSL), while club names vary in the use of "soccer" or "football". If you use "football" without disambiguation many white South Africans (particularly those older than ~50) would assume you are referring to Rugby. Roger (talk) 14:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

It's soccer :) Greenman (talk) 21:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Motorway & Highway

The article says that SA English uses 'highway' instead of 'motorway'. This is totally false! In SA Motorways and highways are different things! Motorways tend to be mid-sized, whilst highways are bigger and go further. Thus they do use the term 'motorway'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jemappelleungarcon (talk • contribs) 03:13, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I have not heard people use motorway in South Africa. Usually they just use the road name ("N2") - otherwise highway. Wizzy…☎ 07:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

We do not use the term motorway at all. The historical reason why we use the American term rather than the British is because the South African National road system was directly inspired by the US Interstate Highway system. Roger (talk) 08:06, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Incomplete references

The references such as "Lass (2002)" and "Lanham (1967:14)" are incomplete - no bibliographic details are given. These sources are the basis of most of the article so fixing it is really important. Roger (talk) 11:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

The "Lanham (1967)" source still has no bibliographic details! Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

The latest change has created a strange situation that every time the text refers to Lass the cite is Mesthrie, previously all those refs were "Lass et al" - can someone please explain this? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:41, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

This is why you shouldn't search and replace, kids. — Lfdder (talk) 18:48, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

To clarify, I accidentally replace the author with the editor. It's fixed now. — Lfdder (talk)

Are

some south africans don't say are e.g. in johannesburg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.228.211.218 (talk) 06:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

The article does mention that SAE is mostly non-rhotic - see the first sentence in the Pronunciation section. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:01, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the first comment meant that some South Africans leave out the word "are" when they speak, e.g. in Johannesburg and Durban it is common to have a sentence such as "we going to watch the rugby" or "you talking kak", i.e. they're completely omitting the word "are" and they will even write their sentences this way. Which is completely fine because the verb is implied and the sentence remains intelligible. 169.1.79.165 (talk) 19:20, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Unsourced

Most of this article consists of unsourced statements, and the article has been flagged as such since 2007. I'm guessing that it seems a pity to cut out the majority of the text. Does anyone have sources? Totorotroll (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I also think that a lot needs further research and investigation, once reliable sources are found. Words supposedly "peculiar" to South African English are generally loaned from other languages, eg Afrikaans and Zulu/Xhosa, in the case of "lekker" and "donga" respectively. Totorotroll (talk) 15:49, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

@Totorotroll: I've rewritten the section about consonants, as it was identical to the content of Bowerman (2004). I think I'll be able to do the same with vowels. Peter238 (talk) 12:34, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Vowel table

I'm strongly against that table, as its sources aren't fully clear (I know what they are, but the readers, most likely, don't) and it's too easy to alter without anyone noticing (I can see that [a] found in Johannesburg by Bekker (2008) just got deleted, and that's unacceptable). Let's just have a massive vowel section without any tables, though much of what we have now is a copy-paste from Bowerman (2004) and needs to go. Peter238 (talk) 06:44, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

The table is here:

(deleted; see the article)

Peter238 (talk) 07:02, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I'm on it. Give me 2-3 hours to complete it. Peter238 (talk) 07:43, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Spelling difference?

I came to this article with the specific purpose to find out what differences in spelling, if any, there are between SAE and BE, and found nothing. I think other readers might be interested too. Do they simply use BE in writing? FunkMonk (talk) 06:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

I think so. 169.1.79.165 (talk) 19:27, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, except of course for words that don't occur in British English. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:06, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, I was looking for an explanation of whether British or American spellings are used, or some combination thereof, as in Canada. The Sandton City article, for example, is written with US spelling. Can someone clarify? Ground Zero | t 13:40, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

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Update and Ideas

I noticed that this article has not been discussed in awhile. I plan to edit it for a class project, and I just wanted to throw a few ideas out there. First, I plan to make sure that any uncited information is either corroborated or removed. I also want to organize the leading section better so the whole article follows more smoothly from this intro. This will likely involve giving the different types of South African English their own section instead of keeping them in the first paragraph. I also plan to add sections on Grammar, History, and Geographical Distribution and update any old statistics. Additionally, I plan to include a discussion on the social function(s) of South African English and its varieties, if such information exists. I found some preliminary academic sources to start my work:

Branford, William. A Hand-Held Dictionary of South African English: Some Problems of English Lexicography in a Multilingual Context. , 1978, ProQuest, http://ezproxy.library.arizona.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.ezproxy2.library.arizona.edu/docview/58084164?accountid=8360.

BROOKES, H. (2004), A Repertoire of South African Quotable Gestures. Journal of Linguistic Anthropology, 14: 186–224. doi:10.1525/jlin.2004.14.2.186

“English in Africa.” English in Africa, vol. 5, no. 1, 1978, pp. 80–81. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238421.

Murphy, M. L. "Defining People: Race and Ethnicity in South African English Dictionaries." International Journal of Lexicography, vol. 11, no. 1, 1998, pp. 1-33, ProQuest, http://ezproxy.library.arizona.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.ezproxy2.library.arizona.edu/docview/58338129?accountid=8360.

Silva, Penny. “The 1820 Settlement: Some Aspects of Its Influence on the Vocabulary of South African English.” English in Africa, vol. 5, no. 1, 1978, pp. 61–70. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238417.

Taylor, Tim. “Anthropological Linguistics.” Anthropological Linguistics, vol. 36, no. 4, 1994, pp. 521–524. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/30028394.

Watts, H. L. “English in Africa.” English in Africa, vol. 7, no. 2, 1980, pp. 90–91. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238480.

If anyone has any input, I'd love to hear your thoughts!Sparks9714 (talk) 18:36, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi Sparks9714, Welcome to Wikipedia. Please note that we never top-post on talk pages, new topics are started at the bottom. It would probably be a good idea to post a brief note at WT:WikiProject South Africa about your interest in this article (and link to this discussion). Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 22:38, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip, Rodger! I will post a note on this project page. I will be editing the South African English page for citations, and primarily adding content in the realms of phonetics and sociolinguistics, which are the focuses of my class.Sparks9714 (talk) 23:48, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: The Study of Language

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 1 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zohaib Alvi, Zabdu2, Lramir54, Tytygo (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Dquin3, Marlem J., Bguti2, Umnawahal, Brian redmond jr, Lexxdavv, Jlia22, Iur444.

— Assignment last updated by UICLing (talk) 10:56, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback Dquin3. I do hope to find more up to date articles and research on Black South African English and cite the information I find. Also I would hope to find pictures for this page that follow Wikipedia's regulations but it is a bit challenging with copyright violations. I have also reached out for help to correct any errors in the citations. Lramir54 (talk) 03:24, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Brian redmond jr thank you for your feedback. We appreciate the kind and detailed praise to our contributions to the article. We will look into fixing the examples in the article to make them more visually appealing and easier to read. Lramir54 (talk) 03:29, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

WikiEd Students: Respond to Feedback

Students: Respond to your peer feedback by posting what changes you will make and what should be made to the article based on your peers' suggestions. Click "reply" below to respond. @Zohaib Alvi, @Zabdu2, @Lramir54, @Tytygo UICLing (talk) 16:24, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

@Dquin3 Thanks for the feedback. We will try to update our articles and cite the info that we get. Given copyright violations and the risks presented above, it may be difficult to do images.

@Marlem J. Thanks for the feedback. Thanks for your compliments on the history section. I am glad it is received well.

@Brian redmond jr Thanks for your feedback on the history section. I am glad it is received well. We will try to update our grammar page with your suggestions, and present it more organized.

@Jlia22 Thanks for your feedback. I like your constructive feedback about comparing more to SAE and specifically showing how different it is. We will try to reflect that.

@Umnawahal Thanks for the feedback. At the time, yes it was unfinished. We will take a look at the citations.

@Iur444 Thanks for the feedback. We'll try and work on the opening of the draft. A chart like the ones seen in class is a good idea as well. Zohaib Alvi (talk) 03:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Dquin3 Thank you for the feedback Dquin3. I do hope to find more up to date articles and research on Black South African English and cite the information I find. Also I would hope to find pictures for this page that follow Wikipedia's regulations but it is a bit challenging with copyright violations. I have also reached out for help to correct any errors in the citations. Lramir54 (talk) 01:52, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Brian redmond jr Thank you for your feedback. We appreciate the kind and detailed praise to our contributions to the article. We will look into fixing the examples in the article to make them more visually appealing and easier to read. Lramir54 (talk) 03:29, 3 November 2022 (UTC) Lramir54 (talk) 01:53, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Stay vs live

A distinctive feature of SA English is the use of "to stay" for a long-term residency where most other English dialects would use "to live" - e.g. "We stayed in Cape Town for five years" as opposed to "We lived in Cape Town for five years." Maybe this should be mentioned. Muzilon (talk) 08:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Geography

I was reading this article and was confused by the inclusion of the geography section. It seems to just be copied from the "Geography of South Africa" article and has no relation to language so why is it included on this article? Haydaddy (talk) 20:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree, I don't see it has much relevance. Greenman (talk) 05:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)